Ego of programmers
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midnight_ wrote:
Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question?
Because sometimes someone is clearly just looking for you to do all their work for them. Seriously, expecting an answer to a question is a two way process - show us what you've attempted so far, and we may be able to help.
midnight_ wrote:
If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise?
Sometimes the advice you give is not the advice the poster wants. In a lot of cases, the response you are going to get is an attempt to tease out what the exact problem you are facing is; what code you currently have; what exceptions you are getting and so on. Another point is that you have to think about where you're asking your questions. If you post a programming question in the lounge, you will be flamed. If you ask an ASP.NET question in the C# forum, you'll be advised that you should have asked it in the ASP.NET forum (after all that's where the ASP.NET experts are). If you cross post a question, you will get downvoted and hammered from others - there's an etiquette. If you take time to learn how to use the forums then you'll hopefully get answers. Start by reading the stickies at the top of the relevant forum.
I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays.
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easierQuote:
show us what you've attempted so far, and we may be able to help.
It's also about trying to get people to think in the right way to solve problems. Sure, with the right information I can detail the exact solution. But if I give some hints and pointers, get you to answer the questions you should have asked yourself, then I may be doing more than just solving this one problem. I hope I can be teaching you how to think through and solve problems in general. The lack of troubleshooting skills is not just apparent with novices in Q&A. I work with some experienced, senior people who struggle when it comes to problem diagnosis.
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All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
midnight_ wrote:
however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous.
If this is a "classic" dev, this is a symptom of too great an ego, rather than a lack. To answer your points:
midnight_ wrote:
Is this really neccessary?
No.
midnight_ wrote:
Why is it even possible to downrate a question?
It acts as a flag: a green question is probably worth looking at a grey on isn't. This isn't always the case, but it is an indicator. Some questions themselves are barely more than thinly-veiled requests for some chump to do the poster's work for him/her.
midnight_ wrote:
If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise?
If they are genuinely looking for advice, then yes they should be helped. The problem is there are an awfully large number of people in a spectrum that goes from gimme code merchants through to those who can't even be bothered with cursory searches on basic topics.Someone posted this[^] on CP recently. I suggest you read it and digest it. It gives an excellent perspective as to what the questioner should be doing at a minimum, but more than that it reveals the experience of an answerer. In short: There is a general decrease the ability/willingness to solve problems oneself, too many such people just want to be spoon-fed the answers, some don't perform basic checks and the increased number of these sorts of posts is leading developers like me to give up helping as it drowns out the good questions.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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There are some good, helpful people there. Unfortunately, there are also a number of people who vote down anything they don't understand, or can't read perfectly, or that is too simple for them. And others who seem only to be there to get rep points, regardless of the answer they give. :sigh: But there are some goodies - I wish Luc hadn't departed but had moved to QA...
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
I've been avoiding Q&A for a quite while now. Being told my answer was incomplete or, more commonly, inferior to another answer got too wearing and frankly I used to point prospective employers at my profile here to help demonstrate I'm an OK dev. This latter point was made hard by the comments and reputation (actual, not the stupid points thingy) is important.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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I've been avoiding Q&A for a quite while now. Being told my answer was incomplete or, more commonly, inferior to another answer got too wearing and frankly I used to point prospective employers at my profile here to help demonstrate I'm an OK dev. This latter point was made hard by the comments and reputation (actual, not the stupid points thingy) is important.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
I don't mind it too much - when it's actually true. That way at least I can maybe learn something. But it does get very wearing when your answer is aimed at a complete beginner and you're trying not to confuse him too much...SAK does live in an ivory tower sometimes.
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt -
All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
Here I thought it is a new collective term, such as a murder of crows. :-D :-D
Every time you think, you weaken the nation.
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I don't mind it too much - when it's actually true. That way at least I can maybe learn something. But it does get very wearing when your answer is aimed at a complete beginner and you're trying not to confuse him too much...SAK does live in an ivory tower sometimes.
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
Oh, I don't mind it when it's genuine and correct either, though SAK does have a habit of phrasing things in a way that seems to get my back up. I used to learn a fair amount simply by answering and thinking the problems through, and that was before other people's input, not I post in the Lounge. Part of the problems is, when he replies, SAK answers with absolute conviction that his input is better, so anyone not in a position to judge will assume his is the better one. Several times I was involved with questions where he aggregated several answers, then commented on every answer that his post was seemingly formed from, pointing it at his "complete" answer. And yes, he really doesn't target his answers well at newbies.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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I've been avoiding Q&A for a quite while now. Being told my answer was incomplete or, more commonly, inferior to another answer got too wearing and frankly I used to point prospective employers at my profile here to help demonstrate I'm an OK dev. This latter point was made hard by the comments and reputation (actual, not the stupid points thingy) is important.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
Keith Barrow wrote:
Being told my answer was incomplete or, more commonly, inferior to another answer got too wearing and frankly I used to point prospective employers at my profile here to help demonstrate I'm an OK dev.
Seems like you still haven't moved on. :-D Well, me too. I think you also remember an argument that we had about a solution I posted. 'Twas a long time ago. This is the reason why I seldom visit Q&A now. While it is true that we can downvote ridiculous questions, people should still be aware of their limits. Chris' last statement below the Submit Solution button is clear but it seems that one(or a few) is still not able to understand it. I still post answers once in a while. Right now, I'm happy being a lurker on the Lounge and it's good to see new folks participating there.
Signature construction in progress. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
I think we can assume that a lot of is due to their being pissed off with managers/idiot colleagues/work in general, and needing someone to take it out on. OTOH, some people are just @rseholes.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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With "In five years, you'll be miles behind me!" printed on them, no doubt.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Keith Barrow wrote:
Being told my answer was incomplete or, more commonly, inferior to another answer got too wearing and frankly I used to point prospective employers at my profile here to help demonstrate I'm an OK dev.
Seems like you still haven't moved on. :-D Well, me too. I think you also remember an argument that we had about a solution I posted. 'Twas a long time ago. This is the reason why I seldom visit Q&A now. While it is true that we can downvote ridiculous questions, people should still be aware of their limits. Chris' last statement below the Submit Solution button is clear but it seems that one(or a few) is still not able to understand it. I still post answers once in a while. Right now, I'm happy being a lurker on the Lounge and it's good to see new folks participating there.
Signature construction in progress. Sorry for the inconvenience.
walterhevedeich wrote:
Seems like you still haven't moved on.
Yes, I still remember the discussion. I actually felt inspired to answer some questions. I saw a couple of "gimme codez/do my basic reseach questions", then I found a question where I basically disagreed with what being requested, even if it were technically possible. I said as much, giving reasons. Within an hour I got the SAK seal of approval, because something is only valid if he says it is. I might have gotten a bit unreasonable on this one.:~
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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walterhevedeich wrote:
Seems like you still haven't moved on.
Yes, I still remember the discussion. I actually felt inspired to answer some questions. I saw a couple of "gimme codez/do my basic reseach questions", then I found a question where I basically disagreed with what being requested, even if it were technically possible. I said as much, giving reasons. Within an hour I got the SAK seal of approval, because something is only valid if he says it is. I might have gotten a bit unreasonable on this one.:~
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
Keith Barrow wrote:
because something is only valid if he says it is.
I just hope he's not like when I was still active there. At least I don't notice those hey-you-check-my-answer comments anymore.
Signature construction in progress. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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Keith Barrow wrote:
because something is only valid if he says it is.
I just hope he's not like when I was still active there. At least I don't notice those hey-you-check-my-answer comments anymore.
Signature construction in progress. Sorry for the inconvenience.
In fairness he has calmed down, especially on that front.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
Sometimes it's ego, and sometimes there are valid reasons to vote down a question. See my Article Idea: How Not to Ask a Question. I never did write an article, but it's a good list of things I don't like to see in questions (though, I don't expect every question to be perfect, so I don't down vote them unless they are really bad, and if they are useless I will just delete them). Though, yes, I agree that beginners deserve some latitude, but only if they seem well intentioned and able to learn.
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All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
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All the years since I'm a developer, I've always used the well-known online resources to learn and improve my skill. I participated on different communities, joined workgroups and else. But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers. There are a lot of excellent and skilled people out there - however a few of them, need to boost their ego. They teasing beginners for their requests, claim anything but their opinion is wrong, and down-vote questions they consider to be ridiculous. Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question? If somebody is looking for help, why not giving him an advise? I know many people have problems to frame question correctly., but they're in a progress of getting better. Or maybe I've just a wrong point of view and you should treat the beginner just like that....
midnight_ wrote:
But one thing never changed - the ego of some programmers.
Because of course they are human. It has nothing to do with programming but rather humanity.
midnight_ wrote:
Is this really neccessary? Why is it even possible to downrate a question?
Voting by its very nature is subjective.
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There are no egos here, we're all just excellent. [Except for Griff, he knows nothing and copies everything from other people claiming it's his own. No one like Griff.]
Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol "Nagy, you have won the internets." - Keith Barrow
My man-crush radar is pinging ...
MVVM # - I did it My Way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Oh, I don't mind it when it's genuine and correct either, though SAK does have a habit of phrasing things in a way that seems to get my back up. I used to learn a fair amount simply by answering and thinking the problems through, and that was before other people's input, not I post in the Lounge. Part of the problems is, when he replies, SAK answers with absolute conviction that his input is better, so anyone not in a position to judge will assume his is the better one. Several times I was involved with questions where he aggregated several answers, then commented on every answer that his post was seemingly formed from, pointing it at his "complete" answer. And yes, he really doesn't target his answers well at newbies.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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Sergey Alexandrovich Kryukov. Answer something in Q&A, he is certain to either reply with reasons he thinks you are wrong, have supplied a partial answer or you get a SAK seal of approval (I assume because nothing can be considered worthwhile until he has agreed with it). I *suspect* he was the original reason this thread started, but I'm not certain.
PB 369,783 wrote:
I just find him very unlikeable, and I think the way he looks like a prettier version of his Mum is very disturbing.[^]
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I don't mind it too much - when it's actually true. That way at least I can maybe learn something. But it does get very wearing when your answer is aimed at a complete beginner and you're trying not to confuse him too much...SAK does live in an ivory tower sometimes.
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
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:laugh: If you don't know, then you don't need to know! If you haven't met some of his more irritating little habits, then you probably will...and then you will recognise him without any input from me! ;)
The universe is composed of electrons, neutrons, protons and......morons. (ThePhantomUpvoter)
