Knowledge Property
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel, Unless there's specific law, this is a grey area. Ownership of the code ought to depend on the contract under which it is written. If you wrote it in your own time or under a contract where you retained IP (there are such contracts!) and can prove it then the "gorilla" comapny can't claim ownership; although they might be able to sue your employer if an attempt was made to charge them a licence (and your employer might be able to sue you!). I advocate 2 things: Agree with your employer that you can use open source/ free licence code, including code that you yourself have written previously; comment your code to indicate that you wrote it and when and the licence terms under which you are prepared to share it (e.g. "freely use and alter" "not fit for any purpose", "hold free from damages", "retention of these comments"). You might refer to the GNU licence if that's appropriate. Under any jurisdiction that I know, that would protect your future and ongoing use and prevent anyone suing you if there's a bug! In practice, it's unlikely that you would ever get in to hot water over commonly used utilities that would look almost identical if you were to write them again from scratch!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company. Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
ChandraRam wrote:
I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
I worked for a large well-known software company for 20 years that had such a policy, though they did have a process by which you could get permission to do personal projects that were not on company time or resources if the project was not related to the company's business and didn't cause a conflict of interest. I went through the process once - IMHO it was more painful than it need to be, so then so are most things that involve lawyers.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
No. Long answer: It will be difficult, specially if you didn't signed anything saying that the code was yours or theirs, otherwise your contract should clearly specify this.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
When is the code I write mine?
Depending on the laws that cover your jurisdiction, the code you wrote is yours when you write it entirely at your own expense, on your own equipment, and on your own time, and sometimes not even then. Once yours, it remains yours as long as you do the correct things to retain that ownership. Giving copies of the source to an employer without a written agreement isn't generally one of those things that helps you retain ownership. Whatever you do, don't make a stink about it. Nothing good will come of it, and the big customer may even decide to bail from the project, and from your company altogether, if there's the slightest hint of legal issues with the code.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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When is the code I write mine? I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code. My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career. So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code? Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
Not like most of developers I know - there are red flags all over that statement. Code that you create belongs to someone. Either you or the company. If you are an employee UNLESS you have a specific contract then ALL of the code that you write for the company, even out of the office (related to their product), belongs to them. There can be restrictions on the out of the office part but in general even if you want to do something for fun completely different than the business of the company you should not agree to be employed until you have a contract that states you can work on such outside projects. If you are a contractor and unless your contract states it, then ALL of the code that your write belongs to you. However MOST of the time the contract will give ownership to the company. If it belongs to the company you cannot take it. You cannot use it. It cannot be used by another company. You have no control nor say in how it is used. If it belongs to you and you switch companies with an existing code base then you MUST have contract that stipulates ownership before using it at the new company. Although not essential it prevents potential legal problems from arising. And none of the above is by convention. It is by law. You can be sued for violating the above. In some case you can be criminally prosecuted. And the companies involved can be sued as well. And any such legal proceedings is not going to help in the future.
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ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
harold aptroot wrote:
Is that even enforceable?
Yes. If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home. If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that 1 - there is NO code from the company in it. 2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it. So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking. And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.
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Joel Palmer wrote:
However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
Not like most of developers I know - there are red flags all over that statement. Code that you create belongs to someone. Either you or the company. If you are an employee UNLESS you have a specific contract then ALL of the code that you write for the company, even out of the office (related to their product), belongs to them. There can be restrictions on the out of the office part but in general even if you want to do something for fun completely different than the business of the company you should not agree to be employed until you have a contract that states you can work on such outside projects. If you are a contractor and unless your contract states it, then ALL of the code that your write belongs to you. However MOST of the time the contract will give ownership to the company. If it belongs to the company you cannot take it. You cannot use it. It cannot be used by another company. You have no control nor say in how it is used. If it belongs to you and you switch companies with an existing code base then you MUST have contract that stipulates ownership before using it at the new company. Although not essential it prevents potential legal problems from arising. And none of the above is by convention. It is by law. You can be sued for violating the above. In some case you can be criminally prosecuted. And the companies involved can be sued as well. And any such legal proceedings is not going to help in the future.
Clearly written. What is hard is that I don't know anyone's background and if they are throwing around what they have heard or if it is something that they have studied and read for themselves. Assuming you are representing the later, now I'm curious how this compares to other professions. So, let me play with this for a moment with a few more hypotheticals. ...and keep in mind, I generally agree that what you state is true, but I'm exploring. Just because someing IS doesn't mean that it SHOULD BE. If I were a journalist working for the New York Times and I wrote a book on the side, does that book, by default, belong to the NYT? Do they have similar contracts that says everything you write is ours unless stated in this contract? Also, if I were a musician and I wrote a song while employed by Sony, by default would I also have no rights unless I had a contract that specifically stated it? It seems like this could be comparable scenarios (he said naively). What I'm driving at is the words "by default". Do the laws by default protect the corporation or do they protect the individual? Or, is there some "employee bill of rights" that actually does protect the individual and would apply to those who CREATE for a living? Or, is this just about working for the MAN?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
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You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241 "'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
Sentenryu wrote:
That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
OK, now I'm curious. 1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.) 2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app? 3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?
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harold aptroot wrote:
Is that even enforceable?
Yes. If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home. If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that 1 - there is NO code from the company in it. 2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it. So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking. And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.
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Sentenryu wrote:
That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
OK, now I'm curious. 1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.) 2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app? 3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?
KP Lee wrote:
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?After reading this i searched by the exact text of the law. The rough translation of that specific law segment is as follow:
Quote:
§ 2 belong, exclusively, to the employee the rights concerning computer program generated with no relation to the employment contract, and without the use of resources, technological information, trade secrets and business materials, facilities or equipment of the employer, the company or entity with which the employer has the contract to provide services or the like, the service contractor or public agency.
(original text in portuguese, for the case there's another brazilian out there that wants to find this law (it's not easy) http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L9609.htm#art16[^]) Looks like it's even more draconian than my teacher told us, the simple fact that you used the company space is enough, and that can be proven with the security cams. But don't get me wrongh, i love that law, it even protects us from patent trolls!
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Article 5 The rights on derivations authorized by the rightholder of software, including its economic exploitation, are owned by the person authorized to make them, unless otherwise provided by contract. [...] III - the occurrence of similar program to another, pre-existing, when it goes under the functional features of your application, observance of precepts normative and technical, or limitation of alternative forms for its expression;
Basically, no one can claim patents on Lists and things like that, at least not on this country.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd r
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Clearly written. What is hard is that I don't know anyone's background and if they are throwing around what they have heard or if it is something that they have studied and read for themselves. Assuming you are representing the later, now I'm curious how this compares to other professions. So, let me play with this for a moment with a few more hypotheticals. ...and keep in mind, I generally agree that what you state is true, but I'm exploring. Just because someing IS doesn't mean that it SHOULD BE. If I were a journalist working for the New York Times and I wrote a book on the side, does that book, by default, belong to the NYT? Do they have similar contracts that says everything you write is ours unless stated in this contract? Also, if I were a musician and I wrote a song while employed by Sony, by default would I also have no rights unless I had a contract that specifically stated it? It seems like this could be comparable scenarios (he said naively). What I'm driving at is the words "by default". Do the laws by default protect the corporation or do they protect the individual? Or, is there some "employee bill of rights" that actually does protect the individual and would apply to those who CREATE for a living? Or, is this just about working for the MAN?
Joel Palmer Data Integration Engineer
Joel Palmer wrote:
If I were a journalist working for the New York Times and I wrote a book on the side, does that book, by default, belong to the NYT? Do they have similar contracts that says everything you write is ours unless stated in this contract?
Never worked for them so I don't know.
Joel Palmer wrote:
Also, if I were a musician and I wrote a song while employed by Sony, by default would I also have no rights unless I had a contract that specifically stated it?
That is an inexact analogy. All employees that have a musical relationship with Sony have some sort of contract stating specifics. If you are contract star then it is very likely that Sony does in fact own everything that you write. If you are a studio musician then it is likely they do not. And if you are a bookkeeper you do not. However the later two presume you do it on your own and the work is not derivative of anything you might have been exposed to while on the job.
Joel Palmer wrote:
What I'm driving at is the words "by default".
Start with the following and research it further as you will... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire[^]
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Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in your free time?
harold aptroot wrote:
Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in your free time?
Could be but they are going to claiming that you stole code and IP. After all the fact that the code is not in the work code base doesn't mean that you didn't write it during a time period when you should have been writing code from them. And fair or not it is a matter of tracking what time was spent where and what ideas were used where. Unless someone keeps extensively detailed records then the subjective nature of the determination can be very detrimental in a number of ways to the individual.
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harold aptroot wrote:
Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in your free time?
Could be but they are going to claiming that you stole code and IP. After all the fact that the code is not in the work code base doesn't mean that you didn't write it during a time period when you should have been writing code from them. And fair or not it is a matter of tracking what time was spent where and what ideas were used where. Unless someone keeps extensively detailed records then the subjective nature of the determination can be very detrimental in a number of ways to the individual.
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KP Lee wrote:
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?After reading this i searched by the exact text of the law. The rough translation of that specific law segment is as follow:
Quote:
§ 2 belong, exclusively, to the employee the rights concerning computer program generated with no relation to the employment contract, and without the use of resources, technological information, trade secrets and business materials, facilities or equipment of the employer, the company or entity with which the employer has the contract to provide services or the like, the service contractor or public agency.
(original text in portuguese, for the case there's another brazilian out there that wants to find this law (it's not easy) http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L9609.htm#art16[^]) Looks like it's even more draconian than my teacher told us, the simple fact that you used the company space is enough, and that can be proven with the security cams. But don't get me wrongh, i love that law, it even protects us from patent trolls!
Quote:
Article 5 The rights on derivations authorized by the rightholder of software, including its economic exploitation, are owned by the person authorized to make them, unless otherwise provided by contract. [...] III - the occurrence of similar program to another, pre-existing, when it goes under the functional features of your application, observance of precepts normative and technical, or limitation of alternative forms for its expression;
Basically, no one can claim patents on Lists and things like that, at least not on this country.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p) "Given the chance I'd r
If I read that right, the employee has exclusive rights to a computer program (s)he creates, if the idea didn't even partially come from the company and company resources weren't used. That's pretty standard in the industry. Even using their electricity would give them the right to claim the program. But first they would have to prove you used their resources to create it. Even with security cameras, I'd think they would have a tough time proving you worked on creating a particular program at work on your own time. However, considering everything, even here, if you have an idea for a program develop it at home. If you don't have electricity at home work on the laptop until the battery runs low, take it to work, plug it in and work exclusively on company business. You can prove you used it exclusively for work and they would have a tough time proving you were stealing electricity to charge your battery.