Please fire the person in Microsoft that thought the charms thing is ok
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A car is a user interface, the car that Homer Simpson build was good I must admit but the reality is users don't know jack about what they really what.
That doesn't change that a UI needs to cater to the users needs! Whether they know them or not is a separate issue - you as a developer should know them however. And it appears MS has failed miserably in this regard.
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Inexperience
It might surprise you, but it is possible to dislike the OS for other reasons than inexperience. Also, I have yet to see any advantages of the new UI, even after finding out how to do things. How are the new ways to do stuff actually better, instead of only different? Difference only for the sake of difference is not exactly what I look for in a new version of an OS or other software. I can put up with a lot of learning time if there is something to be gained, I even learned to like the ribbon design in office quite a lot. But if the UX is changed heavily, I'd like it to actually make sense beyond "now we don't have to make different versions for tablets and desktops". Also, I'd like the company to consider cases like non-fullscreen, laggy RDP connections before implementing a UI in a server OS where I have to put the cursor on some precise pixel in the corner to open up menus because Windows key shortcuts don't work in that case.
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Yes and no. What you describe (and what I already knew) is the way to move the user specific part of a specific library. In this example it will move the "My Documents" location for the currently logged in user. It will not move hte location for the public or any other user, nor will it move the location of the picture, audio, and other library files - you have to move all of them individually! And that's what I haven't found out how to do in 'one step'. It used to be super easy in W7, because it only required knowledge of moving files and folders rather than "libraries", and because that way you could move the entire document folder at once rather than each "sub library" individually. Thank you for proving my point.
When you only select the documents folder it will only move the documents folder. This method stems from windows 95. There are many ways of mapping this in one command.
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That doesn't change that a UI needs to cater to the users needs! Whether they know them or not is a separate issue - you as a developer should know them however. And it appears MS has failed miserably in this regard.
I used to listen to users - I barely made any money. Then I found that if I program to get results - I make money. Every user will complain they have to learn something new, because its all about me me me, that day is over - get over yourself.
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It might surprise you, but it is possible to dislike the OS for other reasons than inexperience. Also, I have yet to see any advantages of the new UI, even after finding out how to do things. How are the new ways to do stuff actually better, instead of only different? Difference only for the sake of difference is not exactly what I look for in a new version of an OS or other software. I can put up with a lot of learning time if there is something to be gained, I even learned to like the ribbon design in office quite a lot. But if the UX is changed heavily, I'd like it to actually make sense beyond "now we don't have to make different versions for tablets and desktops". Also, I'd like the company to consider cases like non-fullscreen, laggy RDP connections before implementing a UI in a server OS where I have to put the cursor on some precise pixel in the corner to open up menus because Windows key shortcuts don't work in that case.
You have a lot of misconceptions of how things work, you make it seem so limited. The simple fact as a programmer I can not do what I can do in windows 8.1 in any other operating system. Everything is a lot easier then you are making it out to be, I don't have problems with running windows 8 in virtual machine windows and moving my mouse to a corner, if we change the resolution available to the window it's going to reduce it to one pixel, alt-tab is the left pane, right click is the top and bottom app bar, and the right pane has a shortcut I just don't know it off the top my head, besides everything else can be done without using the corners. For the average user telling them about the corners, makes it support a breeze as does everything else in windows 8. You just have to learn how, and to try to forget the past.
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I used to listen to users - I barely made any money. Then I found that if I program to get results - I make money. Every user will complain they have to learn something new, because its all about me me me, that day is over - get over yourself.
The point isn't to do everything the users say, the point is to understand their needs. I agree that complaints about having to learn something new are not important in that regard, but the complaints about Win8 have been raging since day one of the preview, and MS chose to ignore them all. Some, but definitely not all of them may just have been about "learning something new". But many were very valid complaints about real usability issues for desktop users. And these did and still do exist.
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The point isn't to do everything the users say, the point is to understand their needs. I agree that complaints about having to learn something new are not important in that regard, but the complaints about Win8 have been raging since day one of the preview, and MS chose to ignore them all. Some, but definitely not all of them may just have been about "learning something new". But many were very valid complaints about real usability issues for desktop users. And these did and still do exist.
I can see how there are a lot of things currently in the UI that don't work the way they are suppose to and affect the user experience, listening to the user at this point is just allowing the user to have creative input into the program not really addressing the issue and potentially road blocking the greatness that will come out of this UI if windows moves backwards.
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You have a lot of misconceptions of how things work, you make it seem so limited. The simple fact as a programmer I can not do what I can do in windows 8.1 in any other operating system. Everything is a lot easier then you are making it out to be, I don't have problems with running windows 8 in virtual machine windows and moving my mouse to a corner, if we change the resolution available to the window it's going to reduce it to one pixel, alt-tab is the left pane, right click is the top and bottom app bar, and the right pane has a shortcut I just don't know it off the top my head, besides everything else can be done without using the corners. For the average user telling them about the corners, makes it support a breeze as does everything else in windows 8. You just have to learn how, and to try to forget the past.
Colborne_Greg wrote:
I can not do what I can do in windows 8.1 in any other operating system.
So, what are the things Win8 lets me do that I can't do in any other OS? The problem I have with the start menu for example, is that I have to move my mouse very precisely because the area that I have to click is only a couple of pixels max, and there is no indication as to where it begins. It's not a natural "move to corner" motion when working in a windowed RDP, it's a "move awkwardly slow and don't sneeze because you might shoot out of the window" motion. Not impossible, but slightly annoying. That's my experience with pretty much all of the system - you can handle it, but there are some annoying tidbits and edge cases that just weren't there before and give the OS the impression of being a compromise between desktop and touch, while not being perfect for either. And while there are some good bits in there, I haven't found enough to justify putting up with the things that I don't like.
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Colborne_Greg wrote:
I can not do what I can do in windows 8.1 in any other operating system.
So, what are the things Win8 lets me do that I can't do in any other OS? The problem I have with the start menu for example, is that I have to move my mouse very precisely because the area that I have to click is only a couple of pixels max, and there is no indication as to where it begins. It's not a natural "move to corner" motion when working in a windowed RDP, it's a "move awkwardly slow and don't sneeze because you might shoot out of the window" motion. Not impossible, but slightly annoying. That's my experience with pretty much all of the system - you can handle it, but there are some annoying tidbits and edge cases that just weren't there before and give the OS the impression of being a compromise between desktop and touch, while not being perfect for either. And while there are some good bits in there, I haven't found enough to justify putting up with the things that I don't like.
time will hopefully solve that. it's kind of a catch 22 for the road to be wide open with abilities yet to be used and the user experience not be compromised.
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Yeah, it only works properly with full screen, since you need to pass by the screen corners. But if you're VNCing, you're smart enough to use Windows keys shortcuts (Win + C, Win + Tab, etc).
Win + C in my environment doesn't work. There is a Citrix in the middle and a lot of other complicated stuff, basically for security :)
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The charms bar is the task bar of the metro mode. Metro app programming is the point to windows 8. The desktop is only there for backwards compatibility. Your arguments are based on inexperience.
I disagree on the inexperience. It is not about "it is possible" or "it is meant to use it this way". What counts is: #1-) Is it easy to use, intuitive and clear (no, to the point that it is confusing on the dual mode) #2-) Clear action = reaction (no, unless you are a ninja mouse master)
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If you have two touch screens use the finger gestures on the edges of both screens to pull up the same menus. Corners applies to both screens. If you have to reposition your mouse - I recommend you change the sensitivity setting so you can move the mouse across the entire environment.
My 24 inch screen is more than an arms length away, because of its size. It is not touch, but if it was I would not be able to reach it. Also, have you heard Gorilla arm? And last but not least, how much time do you lose raising your hand and using it both on the screen and mouse? Not very efficient.
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
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It's a reason to why everyone is not happy about Windows 8, not the reality of it.
Correct. I love Windows 7 and I still have a few VMs in Windows XP. Both great. Vista = total flop. Win 8 = not yet a flop but dancing on the edge. Users have changed over the years. Microsoft cannot just pull the trick of forcing people to do what they think is right. Users have learned that systems adapt to them, not the other way round.
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
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It might surprise you, but it is possible to dislike the OS for other reasons than inexperience. Also, I have yet to see any advantages of the new UI, even after finding out how to do things. How are the new ways to do stuff actually better, instead of only different? Difference only for the sake of difference is not exactly what I look for in a new version of an OS or other software. I can put up with a lot of learning time if there is something to be gained, I even learned to like the ribbon design in office quite a lot. But if the UX is changed heavily, I'd like it to actually make sense beyond "now we don't have to make different versions for tablets and desktops". Also, I'd like the company to consider cases like non-fullscreen, laggy RDP connections before implementing a UI in a server OS where I have to put the cursor on some precise pixel in the corner to open up menus because Windows key shortcuts don't work in that case.
Agree 100% on "I have to put the cursor on some precise pixel in the corner to open up menus because Windows key shortcuts don't work in that case."
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
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Correct. I love Windows 7 and I still have a few VMs in Windows XP. Both great. Vista = total flop. Win 8 = not yet a flop but dancing on the edge. Users have changed over the years. Microsoft cannot just pull the trick of forcing people to do what they think is right. Users have learned that systems adapt to them, not the other way round.
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
I think why everyone is upset is that they are learning that systems wont adapt to them any more. When what they ask for isn't possible while listening to how they want it - the user gets silenced.
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My 24 inch screen is more than an arms length away, because of its size. It is not touch, but if it was I would not be able to reach it. Also, have you heard Gorilla arm? And last but not least, how much time do you lose raising your hand and using it both on the screen and mouse? Not very efficient.
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
My efficiency went up ten fold with the use of touch screens. The efficiency went up to all of my real estate agents that also use touch. It gets results, opinions beyond that are kind of invalid.
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I disagree on the inexperience. It is not about "it is possible" or "it is meant to use it this way". What counts is: #1-) Is it easy to use, intuitive and clear (no, to the point that it is confusing on the dual mode) #2-) Clear action = reaction (no, unless you are a ninja mouse master)
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
My 80 year old grandpa gets it - never got any other OS. that proves both your points invalid.
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I think why everyone is upset is that they are learning that systems wont adapt to them any more. When what they ask for isn't possible while listening to how they want it - the user gets silenced.
You are wrong. If Microsoft won't adapt to the user, some other company will and MS will keep going down. Don't get me wrong, I am an MS and I love Windows above OS X (I use both), but MS needs to be humble enough to recognize the need to adapt to users or die. (albeit they have too much momentum, it will take years but it will happen if they don't adapt)
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
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My 80 year old grandpa gets it - never got any other OS. that proves both your points invalid.
Colborne: Do you own stock at MS?
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Colborne: Do you own stock at MS?
Present anytime, anywhere: www.ccview.me Clipboard in the cloud: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax! And I mostly do in CodeProject and Pluralsight!
no