Open Letter to All IT Recruiting Agencies
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I'm a programmer with over 30 years of experience in the industry, and have experience in most of the currently relevant Microsoft technologies. I've been the victim of right-sizing, cost-cutting, contractual obligations regarding returning veterans, and most recently, out-sourcing, so I'm looking for a new "opportunity". Before you get yourselves into a lather and unleash your legions of "senior recruiters" with their itchy send-email fingers in my direction, know this. I can understand that you probably use some sort fuzzy-logic word matching application to process the thousands upon thousands of IT-related resumes on the various job-search web sites. I get it - I really do. It's a brilliant method for weeding out the non-IT candidates from those lucky millions of others that you would like to represent. However, you STILL have a problem - several, in fact. First, your "senior recruiters are merely emailing (or even worse, cold-calling) EVERYONE that might be a match for a given job posting. Take me for instance. ALL of my online job site profiles have that little box checked that says "WILL NOT RELOCATE". It seems that your "senior recruiters" conveniently ignore that fact, and I get notices for jobs all over the world. Here's some info that may keep your people out of my inbox - I DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN BUM-F*CK EGYPT, NORTH CAROLINA, OR ANY STATE THAT STARTS WITH THE WORD "NEW". In point of fact, if it ain't within 50 miles of my zip code, I don't want to know about it. Make your "senior recruiters" eyeball EVERY resume and Monster profile before sending an email or making a phone call. Furthermore, even if I knew someone that might be interested in such a position, it's your job to find them - NOT my job to give you their name, so don't ask me to do it. If you're so lazy that you can't properly do a job that admittedly doesn't take a lot of cerebral fortitude, maybe you should find more meaningful work. I suggest looking into sweeping standing water off sidewalks, or maybe maintaining the machine that puts the little ridges on checkers. Next, teach your "senior recruiters" a little something about US geography. For the record, Houston and Dallas are NOWHERE NEAR San Antonio. Neither location qualifies as a "longish commute" (and yes, I had some idiot call it that today). Finally, given the fact that so many American programmers are loosing their jobs to off-shore "programmers", don't add insult to injury and have some third-world janitor call me on the phone in the middle of his lunch break a
I have experienced most of the idiocies you describe, and more (although I'm a bit less upset by requests to recommend other candidates when the message offers a USD$500 "commission"). Let's add a couple more: I have retired(I still take small projects), so I have removed my resume from all the job sites. I still get E-mails stating the recruiter found my resume on Monster, or Career Builder, or ... In other words, yet another form letter. Why did I retire? I just got too tired of the idiocy of the recruiting process. The IT recruiting industry seems to have implemented a common "unsubscribe" mechanism (through something called "jobseekers"). However, the unsubscribe applies to the recruiter, not the company. WTF? Finally, like you, I've got quite a few years of experience (try forty-four). In the U.S., it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. So I became accustomed to being rejected for "not being energetic enough." How energetic do you need to be to sit in a cubicle and type on a keyboard? Given that experienced programmers are more productive, and make far fewer bad design decisions, they are a better choice, even economically. And, of course, if you (the employer) need to save money (in a short-term calculation that amounts to cutting your throat to satisfy your shareholders while losing (see, I spelled that right ;<) your customers), you can always lay me off, or out-source my job to China (where an entire team of programmers were unable to even understand the code I provided). Sigh.
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The problem is that they can't pay me enough to work in a blue state, especially if it's above the snow line. To be honest, it's hard enough to stay in Texas.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The problem is that they can't pay me enough to work in a blue state, especially if it's above the snow line.
I feel the same way. But if a company want me bad enough to pay $100,000/hr then I could manage "force" myself to work there, for a couple of weeks. Even in the heavily taxed Northeast, I would be taking a nice chunk of change home. I would be able pay off all the bills and still be able to take a few months/years off after working a few weeks. Do I think a company will really pay me that kind of money? No. Never. But it does encourage the northern recruiters to remove me from their databases, which is what I want.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
To be honest, it's hard enough to stay in Texas.
It is the same here in northeast Tennessee. Most employers here do not want to pay much but then want you to work like a slave. Right now I am working as a consultant/contractor; The pay is okay and I get treated better than the employees. I have had to work away from home at times. I can make 2X what I make locally when I work away from home. I limit myself to areas within the Southeast when I do consider working out of the area. I tend to work near Atlanta a lot, mostly because (a) I have college friends there who are amenable to leasing me a couple of rooms in the basement at a decent rate and (b) I already have working relationships with the local recruiters.
Cheers, Tim W.
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It certainly does take time, it can be alien after windows. I don't really use windows at home anymore. Linux is faster, safer, cheaper and I like it. Trouble is it makes me very impatient and dissatisfied with windows at work. 15 minute boot time? And they charge money for that? Forget about it.
Simon O'Riordan from UK wrote:
15 minute boot time?
Only way I can imagine that happening is if you have basically everything on the box in the system tray. Which means they all start up every time you reboot. Or alternatively there is something seriously messed up with your hardware.
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Yes. This is all true. But it's still Windows. I just spent the whole morning re-installing VS2010 twice. It's possible to break Linux programmes too, but you don't have to pay for them, and you could rebuild the entire system from the ground up four or five times while waiting for windows to do it's thing. :zzz:
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Yes. This is all true. But it's still Windows. I just spent the whole morning re-installing VS2010 twice. It's possible to break Linux programmes too, but you don't have to pay for them, and you could rebuild the entire system from the ground up four or five times while waiting for windows to do it's thing. :zzz:
Simon O'Riordan from UK wrote:
and you could rebuild the entire system from the ground up four or five times while waiting for windows to do it's thing
You must work on some really, really different systems then. Spent many years on windows and unix variants and performance problems in the OS were always a result of the environment that I set up. If I changed the environment then it worked better. True for unix. True for windows.
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I understand your pain. Like you I have been working in the field for an extended time, 20+ years. I have on my resume that I do not want to relocate, but constantly get recruiters contacting me about opportunities "up north." At the beginning of my career I lived in one of those northern states whose name begins with "New", and have since escaped to the mountains of eastern Tennessee via Atlanta. I guess that since I worked up north at one time, recruiters think I would be eager to return to snow-blower country, places like Boston, Philly, NJ, or NYC. I found that no matter how much I would indicate I was not interested nothing seemed to deter recruiters from repeatedly wasting my time and theirs. I finally got smart and started speaking their language, $$$$. Now when contacted by a recruiter about a position in an area I am not interested in I simply state "To get me even remotely interested in going to so-and-so the rate will have to be something God-aweful, like $100,000/hr. Now if you have something closer to my area I can come down significantly." I just love the shocked silence that ensues. I have yet to have a recruiter contact me a second time.
Cheers, Tim W.
SirTreveyan wrote:
To get me even remotely interested in going to so-and-so the rate will have to be something God-aweful, like $100,000/hr
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Why should I contribute to a company who off-shored their recruiting jobs?
Considering it is HR that goes around handing out pink slips, I would be happy to see a portion of HR activity outsourced and the HR critters themselves handed pink slips.:rose:
Sadly, to say, HR is only the messenger of the bad news. The 'firing" manager is to blame. That person can make the decision, but cannot carry it out directly. They sit smugly in their office with the door closed as the employee receives the news and cleans out his desk. But, when you're the manager, that is one of the perks. Kind of like the Mafia. The boss gives the orders, but does not perform the execution.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
loosing ... most US kids nowadays cant speak the language either
Or write it.
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I'm a programmer with over 30 years of experience in the industry, and have experience in most of the currently relevant Microsoft technologies. I've been the victim of right-sizing, cost-cutting, contractual obligations regarding returning veterans, and most recently, out-sourcing, so I'm looking for a new "opportunity". Before you get yourselves into a lather and unleash your legions of "senior recruiters" with their itchy send-email fingers in my direction, know this. I can understand that you probably use some sort fuzzy-logic word matching application to process the thousands upon thousands of IT-related resumes on the various job-search web sites. I get it - I really do. It's a brilliant method for weeding out the non-IT candidates from those lucky millions of others that you would like to represent. However, you STILL have a problem - several, in fact. First, your "senior recruiters are merely emailing (or even worse, cold-calling) EVERYONE that might be a match for a given job posting. Take me for instance. ALL of my online job site profiles have that little box checked that says "WILL NOT RELOCATE". It seems that your "senior recruiters" conveniently ignore that fact, and I get notices for jobs all over the world. Here's some info that may keep your people out of my inbox - I DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN BUM-F*CK EGYPT, NORTH CAROLINA, OR ANY STATE THAT STARTS WITH THE WORD "NEW". In point of fact, if it ain't within 50 miles of my zip code, I don't want to know about it. Make your "senior recruiters" eyeball EVERY resume and Monster profile before sending an email or making a phone call. Furthermore, even if I knew someone that might be interested in such a position, it's your job to find them - NOT my job to give you their name, so don't ask me to do it. If you're so lazy that you can't properly do a job that admittedly doesn't take a lot of cerebral fortitude, maybe you should find more meaningful work. I suggest looking into sweeping standing water off sidewalks, or maybe maintaining the machine that puts the little ridges on checkers. Next, teach your "senior recruiters" a little something about US geography. For the record, Houston and Dallas are NOWHERE NEAR San Antonio. Neither location qualifies as a "longish commute" (and yes, I had some idiot call it that today). Finally, given the fact that so many American programmers are loosing their jobs to off-shore "programmers", don't add insult to injury and have some third-world janitor call me on the phone in the middle of his lunch break a
John, Let me make sure I understand what your issue is.... "Your getting too many offers for work". Did I read that right? Let me know... Lee
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SirTreveyan wrote:
To get me even remotely interested in going to so-and-so the rate will have to be something God-aweful, like $100,000/hr
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
jschell wrote:
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
You are totally missing the point. I have clearly written in my resume I am only interested in specific areas of Southeastern US. If a recruiter would just read my resume they would know I am not interested in opportunities in say Philly or Dallas or San Francisco. In the past I have asked recruiters from these areas to remove me from their databases and subsequently I would still be contacted. I found giving a ridiculous rate achieves what a polite request fails to do.
Cheers, Tim W.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Or write it.
Cute! I noticed the misspelling, but missed the conjunction with a separate thought. Hmmm, loosing my mind. Yep, a misspelling spell-checker still misses.
You can loose your bowels, but don't loose your mind.
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I'm a programmer with over 30 years of experience in the industry, and have experience in most of the currently relevant Microsoft technologies. I've been the victim of right-sizing, cost-cutting, contractual obligations regarding returning veterans, and most recently, out-sourcing, so I'm looking for a new "opportunity". Before you get yourselves into a lather and unleash your legions of "senior recruiters" with their itchy send-email fingers in my direction, know this. I can understand that you probably use some sort fuzzy-logic word matching application to process the thousands upon thousands of IT-related resumes on the various job-search web sites. I get it - I really do. It's a brilliant method for weeding out the non-IT candidates from those lucky millions of others that you would like to represent. However, you STILL have a problem - several, in fact. First, your "senior recruiters are merely emailing (or even worse, cold-calling) EVERYONE that might be a match for a given job posting. Take me for instance. ALL of my online job site profiles have that little box checked that says "WILL NOT RELOCATE". It seems that your "senior recruiters" conveniently ignore that fact, and I get notices for jobs all over the world. Here's some info that may keep your people out of my inbox - I DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN BUM-F*CK EGYPT, NORTH CAROLINA, OR ANY STATE THAT STARTS WITH THE WORD "NEW". In point of fact, if it ain't within 50 miles of my zip code, I don't want to know about it. Make your "senior recruiters" eyeball EVERY resume and Monster profile before sending an email or making a phone call. Furthermore, even if I knew someone that might be interested in such a position, it's your job to find them - NOT my job to give you their name, so don't ask me to do it. If you're so lazy that you can't properly do a job that admittedly doesn't take a lot of cerebral fortitude, maybe you should find more meaningful work. I suggest looking into sweeping standing water off sidewalks, or maybe maintaining the machine that puts the little ridges on checkers. Next, teach your "senior recruiters" a little something about US geography. For the record, Houston and Dallas are NOWHERE NEAR San Antonio. Neither location qualifies as a "longish commute" (and yes, I had some idiot call it that today). Finally, given the fact that so many American programmers are loosing their jobs to off-shore "programmers", don't add insult to injury and have some third-world janitor call me on the phone in the middle of his lunch break a
I find it really ironic actually just based on the names from those emailing me, but I think what you are experiencing is "head hunter trolling"... it seems like most of these folks are "work from home recruiters" who troll monster, dice, indeed, and the other job aggregation sites. I doubt they earn much in the way of commission, because most companies (at least from my experience) use the same online career software (can't remember the name of the company), but their might be one or two companies that have cornered the market... anyway the most annoying are these 6 month temp jobs or temp to perm jobs.. what software engineer wants to be "test driven" and then thrown away after the job is over? I guess when peoples' H1-B or student visa runs out -- they have to become a recruiter because they are ineligible to work? maybe that's what is happening.:java:
David
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I'm a programmer with over 30 years of experience in the industry, and have experience in most of the currently relevant Microsoft technologies. I've been the victim of right-sizing, cost-cutting, contractual obligations regarding returning veterans, and most recently, out-sourcing, so I'm looking for a new "opportunity". Before you get yourselves into a lather and unleash your legions of "senior recruiters" with their itchy send-email fingers in my direction, know this. I can understand that you probably use some sort fuzzy-logic word matching application to process the thousands upon thousands of IT-related resumes on the various job-search web sites. I get it - I really do. It's a brilliant method for weeding out the non-IT candidates from those lucky millions of others that you would like to represent. However, you STILL have a problem - several, in fact. First, your "senior recruiters are merely emailing (or even worse, cold-calling) EVERYONE that might be a match for a given job posting. Take me for instance. ALL of my online job site profiles have that little box checked that says "WILL NOT RELOCATE". It seems that your "senior recruiters" conveniently ignore that fact, and I get notices for jobs all over the world. Here's some info that may keep your people out of my inbox - I DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN BUM-F*CK EGYPT, NORTH CAROLINA, OR ANY STATE THAT STARTS WITH THE WORD "NEW". In point of fact, if it ain't within 50 miles of my zip code, I don't want to know about it. Make your "senior recruiters" eyeball EVERY resume and Monster profile before sending an email or making a phone call. Furthermore, even if I knew someone that might be interested in such a position, it's your job to find them - NOT my job to give you their name, so don't ask me to do it. If you're so lazy that you can't properly do a job that admittedly doesn't take a lot of cerebral fortitude, maybe you should find more meaningful work. I suggest looking into sweeping standing water off sidewalks, or maybe maintaining the machine that puts the little ridges on checkers. Next, teach your "senior recruiters" a little something about US geography. For the record, Houston and Dallas are NOWHERE NEAR San Antonio. Neither location qualifies as a "longish commute" (and yes, I had some idiot call it that today). Finally, given the fact that so many American programmers are loosing their jobs to off-shore "programmers", don't add insult to injury and have some third-world janitor call me on the phone in the middle of his lunch break a
I'm in the same position (except I starting programming for a living forty years ago). I just need a couple of contracts to make it to retirement. I get all the same lame calls and emails that you do. I keep getting an ad for occupation therapists in Texas somewhere. (I'll forward it if you are interested.) Half the cold calls I get are from people who I cannot understand. I've started just ignoring them.
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You are wasting your time. I am looking for pastures new right now and it is frustrating but venting at recruiters is both a waste of time and may, believe it or not, stop you from getting a great role. Why? Because as inefficient as they are when it comes to eye-balling resumes (which, by the way, they do not actually do) it might just be that if you are responsive and show interest and keep in touch they may be more likely to properly read your resume and, subsequently, properly match it to a job that you could walk to. I used to get all crusty and in their face like you but times have changed and so, incredibly, have they. I now try and call each one and have a quick chat. Most of the time they don't have anything but now and again I talk to someone who says "well, I can see that won't fit but I do have something else...". Looking for a new role is a full time job and a chance to network. Try it: you might be surprised. (on the other hand, you may get terribly disappointed and then you'll blame me and you have many, many guns and I don't and, oh shit, here he comes!!!) :-) ps If they say they have something in the valley, do let me know...
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me me, in pictures
An advisor at the local unemployment office told me that most contacts you get from headhunters are not for a job they actually have. They are just looking to add you to their database so their searches can match you to a future job more efficiently (for them). I've found this to be mostly true.
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I hear ya; I feel your pain. I was looking 1/2 year ago. Here's what I've learned/trained myself to do: If English (my native language) is their native language, hear them out. Hone that list down to 4 or 5. If English is not their native language, hang up/delete. I wasted a ton of time on the non-English speakers this last time and the time 5 years ago - from those experiences I learned that they are a waste of time. I've had very good luck with the honed list.
I just went through a learning experience with a recruiter who I could not understand. He bungled the whole thing (including setting up an interview with the employer but not with me) to the point that I wrote him an email saying I was no longer interested. He sent me an email saying "thanks for the response, how about this other opportunity". I told him to never send me another email or call me ever again. I've not heard from him since (yet).
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You can loose your bowels, but don't loose your mind.
Actually, losing your mind wouldn't be a good choice. With the first choice, I thought "diarrhea", which doesn't seem pleasant either, then realized that normally it really is your choice to do so. On the other hand, I kind of like letting my mind wander at times which means loosening the reins on my mind, so, in fact, I do let it loose. I lose my temper too often, short term memory too, but don't want to lose my mind at any time.
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jschell wrote:
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
You are totally missing the point. I have clearly written in my resume I am only interested in specific areas of Southeastern US. If a recruiter would just read my resume they would know I am not interested in opportunities in say Philly or Dallas or San Francisco. In the past I have asked recruiters from these areas to remove me from their databases and subsequently I would still be contacted. I found giving a ridiculous rate achieves what a polite request fails to do.
Cheers, Tim W.
SirTreveyan wrote:
You are totally missing the point.
No I understand your point. My point is that everything is always a negotiation. For example the fact that you specifically state that you only want a job in your local area probably doesn't mean that you are willing to accept such a job for minimum wage. And although, just like you, I don't want to relocate I would in fact do it if they wanted to pay me enough. I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
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SirTreveyan wrote:
You are totally missing the point.
No I understand your point. My point is that everything is always a negotiation. For example the fact that you specifically state that you only want a job in your local area probably doesn't mean that you are willing to accept such a job for minimum wage. And although, just like you, I don't want to relocate I would in fact do it if they wanted to pay me enough. I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
jschell wrote:
No I understand your point.
My point is that everything is always a negotiation.You ARE missing the point. There is NO room for negotiation. I used to live in the Northeast and I know from experience that I would not be able to reproduce my lifestyle anywhere up there at a "reasonable rate". Currently I have a 30 minute commute to work and return every night to my home on a mountain ridge with sufficient land to more than adequately ensure my privacy. I do not have neighbors nor government agencies trying to tell me what I can and can not do. If I feel like target shooting or hunting on my property I can. If I want to start raising chickens or other live stock, I can; without having to jump through hoops imposed by others seeking to limit my pursuit of happiness. I simply do not want to live or work outside the Southeast. Period. End of story. In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
jschell wrote:
I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
Why should I care about a reasonable rate when I have absolutely no interest in relocating. The sole purpose of that ridiculous rate is to get recruiters who are too lazy to read a resume to REMOVE me from their database so they do not continue to harass me.
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jschell wrote:
No I understand your point.
My point is that everything is always a negotiation.You ARE missing the point. There is NO room for negotiation. I used to live in the Northeast and I know from experience that I would not be able to reproduce my lifestyle anywhere up there at a "reasonable rate". Currently I have a 30 minute commute to work and return every night to my home on a mountain ridge with sufficient land to more than adequately ensure my privacy. I do not have neighbors nor government agencies trying to tell me what I can and can not do. If I feel like target shooting or hunting on my property I can. If I want to start raising chickens or other live stock, I can; without having to jump through hoops imposed by others seeking to limit my pursuit of happiness. I simply do not want to live or work outside the Southeast. Period. End of story. In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
jschell wrote:
I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
Why should I care about a reasonable rate when I have absolutely no interest in relocating. The sole purpose of that ridiculous rate is to get recruiters who are too lazy to read a resume to REMOVE me from their database so they do not continue to harass me.
SirTreveyan wrote:
In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
Then that settles it. Myself I would be willing to work anywhere in the US for a guaranteed 40 hour/wk 2 year guaranteed contract at $500 an hour. I don't expect to get a million dollars a year but I am certainly going to give them the chance to turn it down.
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SirTreveyan wrote:
In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
Then that settles it. Myself I would be willing to work anywhere in the US for a guaranteed 40 hour/wk 2 year guaranteed contract at $500 an hour. I don't expect to get a million dollars a year but I am certainly going to give them the chance to turn it down.
jschell wrote:
I would be willing to work anywhere in the US
That's you, and I am me. Everyone is different. Each of us, have certain preferences, brought on by our life's experiences, possibly colored by our prejudices valid or not. I prefer to live where I do for various reasons, including my hobbies. It was difficult finding a property not encumbered by HOA or covenant bullshit so I could pursue mu hobbies as I choose. For example, as an amateur radio operator, I have spent years setting up a bunch of HF, VHF and UHF antenna systems. My current project is a phased array of 16 antennas for 440Mhz Moonbounce. I hesitate to even estimate how long it would take me to take down all the antennas, amplifiers, disassemble the towers and dig up all the buried cables let alone putting them all up again elsewhere. I would have difficulty just moving down the mountain because of this one issue alone. Having lived in the Northeast, land of liberals who believe everyone's pursuit of happiness must give way to their own, I know it could take years to find a property when I could pursue my amateur radio hobby the way I desire in any Blue State. Again, it rude and obnoxious for a recruiter to call me about an opportunity outside my stated preference while implying they have read my resume which clearly states my location preference. I have had many recruiters continue contacting me even after I requested to be removed from their database. My solution to continued calls was to state a rate that I KNOW would not be considered. I feel it would be just as unprofessional to turn down an offer after I quote a high albeit possible rate. I found that stating a "ridiculous" rate the best way to handle the situation.