Please tell me not all programming jobs are like this.
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If you are a permie, that's bad... On the other hand, for a Contractor, a job like that is just Gravy - you can get paid for doing what you want, when you want to, and blame everyone else for not providing the information you need to do the job. Best of all, if it doesn't work at the end because the internal format is sufficiently arcane, you can just say "why didn't you tell me that at some point?" and start all over again...on the same pay scale... ;)
OriginalGriff wrote:
blame everyone else for not providing the information you need to do the job
AKA "The Nagy technique".
OriginalGriff wrote:
on the triplesame pay scale
AKA "The Dalek technique"
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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OriginalGriff wrote:
blame everyone else for not providing the information you need to do the job
AKA "The Nagy technique".
OriginalGriff wrote:
on the triplesame pay scale
AKA "The Dalek technique"
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
I resemble that remark! When I find myself in that position I shout early, I shout loud, I shout often. It is a great disturbance to the situpons when you want to do something and Retardon Doofus Numb-Brain III decides he won't give you all the relevant information.:mad:
speramus in juniperus
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
To make sure I understand: You were given a task that you think is
harold aptroot wrote:
not worth doing
and, as an intern, you feel you are qualified to make that statement. Rather than use it as an opportunity for growth and choosing to document what was previously undocumented, you want to
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
So, just to make sure we all understand... You were given a task that you feel is
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
As an intern, you have an opportunity to grow your skill set, show your worth and document something that was previously undocumented. Also, since you are a member of CodeProject you have an interest in writing code. Take the high road, do the best job you can do, and learn from the experience. Others have, and will, tell you to run... face adversity in the face and push forward.
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As an intern, you have an opportunity to grow your skill set, show your worth and document something that was previously undocumented. Also, since you are a member of CodeProject you have an interest in writing code. Take the high road, do the best job you can do, and learn from the experience. Others have, and will, tell you to run... face adversity in the face and push forward.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
blame everyone else for not providing the information you need to do the job
AKA "The Nagy technique".
OriginalGriff wrote:
on the triplesame pay scale
AKA "The Dalek technique"
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
Rage wrote:
OriginalGriff wrote:
on the triplesame pay scale
AKA "The Dalek technique"
For both Nagy and The Dalek, shouldn't that be "on the tipple pay scale"?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Grow my skill set? Show my worth? I think this is an other job that you're talking about here.. one that I might like to have.
Dealing with some level of stupid/insane is part of any job. It sounds like your internship
enslavementwill be earning you advanced certification in it. :rolleyes:Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Grow my skill set? Show my worth? I think this is an other job that you're talking about here.. one that I might like to have.
If you are working at a place where you don't like it, unless you know the situation will change or you can move to a better position, then leave the company. It is that simple. If you want/need to find something else before leaving, that is some you should consider. Otherwise, I also think you should try to improve yourself with what was given to you. By doing that, it will be their loss when losing you if they don't value your skills.
There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure. Colin Powell
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:laugh: I had that job title once, but I already had 2 years experience with a major company when I walked in (that title helped them avoid some laws regarding the number of employees they had, and I was just part time). By the time that job was over, I actually had to partially lead the team I was supposed to be interning with... :laugh: ;P My advice, take it for what it is, recognize that is not a place you want to work long term (it will kill your resume as you will not have relevant skills), but don't quit before you have another job lined up. It is real experience after all, and will separate you from the competition of other entry level folks. And by all means, it is "intern", reminder, do not stay long term. Maybe 3 - 6 months? Keep your eyes open, good jobs are out there, just don't let a bad job drag you down.
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That's the important detail. On one hand: If you have the flexibility to go someplace else I'd say run. On the other hand: There's something to be said for getting mired in the worst, most disgusting loopyarchy of bureaucracy and spaghetti code with turf wars, petty fiefdoms and other miscellaneous psychosis as early in your career as possible. Because after you've seen that, you'll be able to handle everything. On the 3rd hand (I'm not from around here): If what you're thinking about is leaving programming and IT and you have an alternative on your mind I say this: RUN SCREAMING. Don't make the mistake I made (which is not running screaming.) But if you have some sort of nebulous "well coding is fun but there's not really anything else specific I'm balancing it against" then, well, go for it. Get up to your neck in corporate politics and nastiness. My decades in the financial programming have me absolutely inoculated against any goofy power plays, "I keep my own source control on my workstation" and other assorted coding nightmares I will EVER encounter in my life.
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Grow my skill set? Show my worth? I think this is an other job that you're talking about here.. one that I might like to have.
Experience is always worth something, even if the experience is torture. I say hang in there, you'll have a better resume at the end. Since you're an intern they really shouldn't be expecting much, and you haven't got much to lose. It sounds like they want you to do a salaried programmer's job while being paid as an intern and that sucks, but it's a stepping stone to something better. You may as well take advantage of the opportunity to gain experience, even if it's a pretty lousy opportunity. Having said that, as soon as you can find a real salaried job get the hell out of there.
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
harold aptroot wrote:
Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
I'm there too, but need to still pay some bills. And alimony.
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
harold aptroot wrote:
Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time.
At least in the US the position you described is specifically intended for a limited audience so if equivalent then you should fit the demographic for what they want anyways. The point of such jobs for the employee is to get actual experience doing something involving code. It isn't supposed to be exciting, cutting edge, fun, and well paying because those jobs are reserved for people who have real experience. The employee gets some experience and the company gets good press and cheap labor for a task that should be done but only because it is on someone's wish list. It is also intended to be short term. So moving to another 'intern' type position is expected. Now all of the above presumes that you really fit the target demographic. If not then you shouldn't take it and they shouldn't have offered it to you in the first place.
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
I have been in a similar situation like you. I had 4 years experience in industrial automation (programming PLC's and human machine interfaces). I was bored of that programming because it was very 'low level' and I wanted to program some high level stuff in C# or java. So I changed my job into finance. My then new employer wouldn't let me code for 100% but told me that I would have to learn a lot in advance. I was promised to be allowed to code 50% of my time and do customer support and system administration the other 50%... Well in the end it was 100% support and admin. After a year and a half I was at the point you seem to be right now. I talked to my boss and asked for more money (which I got) and that I liked to code 100% of my time (I already knew I could code and did not have to prove me any longer). His last words during our conversation were: "You know, I once learned a very important thing on a management seminar: Love it, change it, or leave it." I was knocked over by the clarity in this. I could not love this. I had that clear. After thinking about this a few days I figured out that I was actively trying to change it since a year or so. Then the last option was leaving - which I did two month later. I am now having a job were I can program 100% of my time and do it the way I like (TDD, scrum team, nice pair programming partners, etc.). It is not all perfect here and some tasks are just boring but I guess that's the same with every job. There is one thing I could have done better: Find a coding job in a field that really interests me in a non coding way. For example: I like aviation and music but I am working in the renewable energy sector currently. I could have done even better by finding a job in one of the above fields. My advice: Don't leave the profession entirely. Find a company that does something that you would like to do when creating your own company and then get a job there. If you do so, doing work that isn't cool (like that xml conversion stuff) is not that bad at all because it is for the "higher goal" of your company that you also share. Regards, cmger
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
Sounds like an awesome opportunity to develop something in F# (my new favourite language) :)
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I resemble that remark! When I find myself in that position I shout early, I shout loud, I shout often. It is a great disturbance to the situpons when you want to do something and Retardon Doofus Numb-Brain III decides he won't give you all the relevant information.:mad:
speramus in juniperus
Same here. Have you been reading my Troublemaker's Handbook? :-\ On a serious note, once you've worked in a truly crap organisation you can learn to smell organisational dysfunction a mile off and hopefully avoid the worst of it in the future.
Anna :rose: Tech Blog | Visual Lint "Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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So, I was interviewed for a job, and during the interview they didn't seem to want to say too much about what they actually did or what the job would be like. Made me suspicious, but also curious, and since I didn't really have anything better to do.. I just witnessed the most enterprisey piece of I don't even know what to call it. It's the sort of thing that requires 5 years of training just to use it, let alone modify the code. They briefly expected me to just get started on it, fortunately they quickly abandoned that plan. Instead, they want me to create something that converts some arcane XML format (CAMT053) to an undocumented XML format they use internally. Ok, sure, arcane to undocumented, perfectly doable, given enough time. But not worth doing. Frankly I'm getting ready to leave the profession entirely.
No, not all programming jobs are like that. Some are worse:
- Revising an undocumented 250,000 line FORTRAN 66 program (it analyzed neutron scattering patterns) that arrived on your desk without documentation;
- Finding the deadlock that causes an MVME-147 SBC and an obsolete vector processor to spin in place, each waiting for the other to release its hold on shared memory;
- Finding the error in a large microcode program for a proprietary device (whose author isn't just unavailable; he's dead) that causes the VAX it's installed in to machine-check and halt hard.
(Yes, I've had to do all those things.)
There's always something worse, and Murphy's Law as applied to the programming trade -- it's a trade, not a profession, but that's a tirade for another time and place -- guarantees that if you moan that "nothing could be worse than this," you'll learn better on your own hide.
Software can be fun, but it can also be pretty dreary. Maintenance and obsolescence being inexorable facts of the deal, the dreary parts can outweigh the fun ones for long stretches of time. That's one of the reasons why most software people do their best to escape the "hands-on" part of their occupation by age forty. Those who succeed find, to their sorrow, that there are even worse things than the worst of software jobs: for example, wearing a suit and tie and spending forty hours a week attending meetings and reading and writing reports.
(This message is programming you in ways you cannot detect. Be afraid.)
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Grow my skill set? Show my worth? I think this is an other job that you're talking about here.. one that I might like to have.
