Volunteer Development Work
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Cow-Orker? Is that some variety of super-Ork, or a particularly vicious Cow? Or an Ork riding to Gondor on the back of a cow? :-D
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When I was living in California I decided I was going to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity to do electrical work, as in design and wire the houses for free (I'm an Electrical Engineer). I set out to figure out what I had to do to obtain an electrician's license in the state. Low and behold, they make it VERY difficult to get licensed and there's no exceptions for engineers, which doesn't make sense to me (same amount of time for an engineer to get licensed as for someone who has NO experience at all). You essentially have to be in an apprenticeship for some ridiculous amount of time (7 years if I remember correctly). So... I ended up not doing it. Don't understand the crazy regulations some states have. It almost sounds like they're controlled by a union.
Albert Holguin wrote:
which doesn't make sense to me
At least when I was in college the courses necessary to get an electrical engineering degree did nothing at all to prepare one to wire a house much less something like a restaurant or office correctly. Didn't actually prepare one to do much at all in the real world for that matter. And although good intentions are admirable they will not prevent a house fire caused by incorrectly installing an electrical system. In comparison I am rather certain as well that I would not want a civil engineer building a house and very definitely wouldn't want them building a bridge if their only experience was a degree from a university. Doesn't matter what university either. FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
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Albert Holguin wrote:
which doesn't make sense to me
At least when I was in college the courses necessary to get an electrical engineering degree did nothing at all to prepare one to wire a house much less something like a restaurant or office correctly. Didn't actually prepare one to do much at all in the real world for that matter. And although good intentions are admirable they will not prevent a house fire caused by incorrectly installing an electrical system. In comparison I am rather certain as well that I would not want a civil engineer building a house and very definitely wouldn't want them building a bridge if their only experience was a degree from a university. Doesn't matter what university either. FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
Electrical engineering college material makes sure you understand electricity, at least it should, if it didn't, you should ask for a refund. I do agree it won't teach you everything about wiring a house, it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work. There really isn't much to wiring a house really... the seven year apprenticeship was set up for getting an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school and getting him trained to be an electrician, not for an electrical engineer to learn the ins/outs of wiring a house.
jschell wrote:
FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
This is most states... I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school is pretty extreme (reeks of union/political moves).
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Have any of you ever done volunteer development work? If so, was it for a large organization, perhaps nationwide? Or something smaller, like a local cause? Through my girlfriend's mother, I got in contact with a local non-profit group. Their Web site was horribly put together by some guy, a slackjob. Luckily it isn't very complicated and we could keep the design and just rework the small amount of server-side stuff. Anyhow, have any of you ever done something like that? I've been looking for places to volunteer my skills for a long time. I just didn't find it until now. Just curious. :)
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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Have any of you ever done volunteer development work? If so, was it for a large organization, perhaps nationwide? Or something smaller, like a local cause? Through my girlfriend's mother, I got in contact with a local non-profit group. Their Web site was horribly put together by some guy, a slackjob. Luckily it isn't very complicated and we could keep the design and just rework the small amount of server-side stuff. Anyhow, have any of you ever done something like that? I've been looking for places to volunteer my skills for a long time. I just didn't find it until now. Just curious. :)
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
Matt - I'm also in Middle Tennessee (Murfreesboro). There's plenty of non-profits around here - and in Nashville - with old, dilapidated websites that would love someone to come in and refresh/update/etc. their websites (I'm working with a few now). Just be careful how you approach it - one of my first gigs I was...less than tactful. I approached the office manager with "Your website is old and outdated, and uses technology that's ancient and was apparently written by someone who didn't understand web technologies. It needs to be updated." Guess who had built it... Lesson learned. Now it's "I want to build my portfolio and help you all out by volunteering. How can I help?"
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Matt - I'm also in Middle Tennessee (Murfreesboro). There's plenty of non-profits around here - and in Nashville - with old, dilapidated websites that would love someone to come in and refresh/update/etc. their websites (I'm working with a few now). Just be careful how you approach it - one of my first gigs I was...less than tactful. I approached the office manager with "Your website is old and outdated, and uses technology that's ancient and was apparently written by someone who didn't understand web technologies. It needs to be updated." Guess who had built it... Lesson learned. Now it's "I want to build my portfolio and help you all out by volunteering. How can I help?"
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Simon: Cow-worker is a Scott Adams phrase used when talking about the idiots we are sometimes forced to work with. Matt: Hardly unfortunate that you're not in New England, I'd say. ;)
Ah, Dilbert. I'm more a Douglas Adams fan. :)
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Electrical engineering college material makes sure you understand electricity, at least it should, if it didn't, you should ask for a refund. I do agree it won't teach you everything about wiring a house, it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work. There really isn't much to wiring a house really... the seven year apprenticeship was set up for getting an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school and getting him trained to be an electrician, not for an electrical engineer to learn the ins/outs of wiring a house.
jschell wrote:
FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
This is most states... I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school is pretty extreme (reeks of union/political moves).
Albert Holguin wrote:
it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work
So in college exactly which class taught you the following? - Exact gauge of wire to run to the kitchen light, the kitchen oven and the dryer? And the type of wire that meets code? - Where in a joist you can run a wire? - How many and far apart electrical sockets are needed to meet code? - How do you run a wire around a pipe? Around a corner? - What sort of junction box do you need in a bathroom versus against a cement wall versus in drywall? - What paper work do you need to present when the home is inspected? Myself when I took my classes in Electrical Engineering I learned a great deal about how to prove what an idealized magnetic/electrical fields should do, how an ideal refrigerator should work and a lot about calculus and quite a bit more about literature, social theory and psychology. Far as I can recall I had about two semesters total of "electrical" labs one of which involved building a bread boarded computer and another which built trivial amplifiers. I got through the later because my two lab partners were 'working engineers' whose company insisted they go back to school to get a real degree. Now it might be quite possible that an above average person doesn't need 4 years of actually working as an electrician to do the job. But by definition the vast majority of people are not in fact above average. And it seems rather unfair to allow someone's house to burn down because someone insists that they are in fact the exception to the rule, based on nothing more than their word that they are above average. Not to mention of course that just because someone is familiar with some aspect of science that that means that they are completely competent to undertake everything else. If that were the case then everyone would need do nothing more than train as a mathematician and everything else would follow. Same holds for a civil engineer. I simply do not want to drive across a bridge built by someone who did nothing more than pass a test regardless of how certain that individual is that they are competent to build that bridge.
Albert Holguin wrote:
I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school
All I can say is that you must have had completely different c
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The lack of time to devote to volunteer work is certainly understandable. But that's quite an impressive list of volunteer work. That's awesome. :)
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
In regards to my lack of time, that lack is wholly attributed by my, well, "volunteering" to be a Dad, the best volunteer work I'll ever do, 'cept when volunteering to being a Grandpa (Lord willing) comes around!
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When I was living in California I decided I was going to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity to do electrical work, as in design and wire the houses for free (I'm an Electrical Engineer). I set out to figure out what I had to do to obtain an electrician's license in the state. Low and behold, they make it VERY difficult to get licensed and there's no exceptions for engineers, which doesn't make sense to me (same amount of time for an engineer to get licensed as for someone who has NO experience at all). You essentially have to be in an apprenticeship for some ridiculous amount of time (7 years if I remember correctly). So... I ended up not doing it. Don't understand the crazy regulations some states have. It almost sounds like they're controlled by a union.
Most work like that *is* controlled by unions. In many states the use of a Car computer Diagnostic reader is free. It's a minimum $49 just for it to get hooked to your car in Calif.
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Most work like that *is* controlled by unions. In many states the use of a Car computer Diagnostic reader is free. It's a minimum $49 just for it to get hooked to your car in Calif.
Unfortunately, I know it is controlled by unions... that's what makes it worse, because in those cases there's no rhyme or reason other than the unions either getting a cut or keeping tight control. I'd be willing to bet they push all electricians into joining the unions or else they won't get licensed.
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Albert Holguin wrote:
it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work
So in college exactly which class taught you the following? - Exact gauge of wire to run to the kitchen light, the kitchen oven and the dryer? And the type of wire that meets code? - Where in a joist you can run a wire? - How many and far apart electrical sockets are needed to meet code? - How do you run a wire around a pipe? Around a corner? - What sort of junction box do you need in a bathroom versus against a cement wall versus in drywall? - What paper work do you need to present when the home is inspected? Myself when I took my classes in Electrical Engineering I learned a great deal about how to prove what an idealized magnetic/electrical fields should do, how an ideal refrigerator should work and a lot about calculus and quite a bit more about literature, social theory and psychology. Far as I can recall I had about two semesters total of "electrical" labs one of which involved building a bread boarded computer and another which built trivial amplifiers. I got through the later because my two lab partners were 'working engineers' whose company insisted they go back to school to get a real degree. Now it might be quite possible that an above average person doesn't need 4 years of actually working as an electrician to do the job. But by definition the vast majority of people are not in fact above average. And it seems rather unfair to allow someone's house to burn down because someone insists that they are in fact the exception to the rule, based on nothing more than their word that they are above average. Not to mention of course that just because someone is familiar with some aspect of science that that means that they are completely competent to undertake everything else. If that were the case then everyone would need do nothing more than train as a mathematician and everything else would follow. Same holds for a civil engineer. I simply do not want to drive across a bridge built by someone who did nothing more than pass a test regardless of how certain that individual is that they are competent to build that bridge.
Albert Holguin wrote:
I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school
All I can say is that you must have had completely different c
jschell wrote:
Other than that learning the practice is not that hard but it takes time because one must encounter all of the cases that might occur in the real world. For example one might need to deal with buried cables or overhead wires. Or acquiring right of way. Or dealing with water in unexpected places. Or recognizing that some product is substandard. And yes a high school graduate who is enthusiastic can in fact learn all that with experience. And someone with a bunch of theory under their belt isn't going to learn that by studying up for a written test.
Takes you 7 years to learn that? Same thing with the whole wire gauge comments above, that's all small potatoes stuff that wouldn't take you very long to pickup. Pretty sure all that has to do more with the union controlling who gets licensed than how long it takes someone to learn something.
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jschell wrote:
Other than that learning the practice is not that hard but it takes time because one must encounter all of the cases that might occur in the real world. For example one might need to deal with buried cables or overhead wires. Or acquiring right of way. Or dealing with water in unexpected places. Or recognizing that some product is substandard. And yes a high school graduate who is enthusiastic can in fact learn all that with experience. And someone with a bunch of theory under their belt isn't going to learn that by studying up for a written test.
Takes you 7 years to learn that? Same thing with the whole wire gauge comments above, that's all small potatoes stuff that wouldn't take you very long to pickup. Pretty sure all that has to do more with the union controlling who gets licensed than how long it takes someone to learn something.
Albert Holguin wrote:
Takes you 7 years to learn that?
Are you claiming that it would take a high school graduate that long to learn that?
Albert Holguin wrote:
Pretty sure all that has to do more with the union controlling who gets licensed than how long it takes someone to learn something.
Quite possible. But a electrical engineering degree doesn't teach one how to do it either.
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Unfortunately, I know it is controlled by unions... that's what makes it worse, because in those cases there's no rhyme or reason other than the unions either getting a cut or keeping tight control. I'd be willing to bet they push all electricians into joining the unions or else they won't get licensed.
Albert Holguin wrote:
I'd be willing to bet they push all electricians into joining the unions or else they won't get licensed.
The reality is nothing that one does can insure that licensed professionals are actually competent to do the work. So at best one strives to make it more likely. And as with everything involving humans politics are part of it. But despite both of those allowing someone to just start doing it solely because they think they are competent is not going to work either. So claiming that the current system is inappropriate is not an excuse to completely eliminate the system.