Are your former companies still around?
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
34 years of experience, 4 companies. Company 1: Resigned, profitable when I left; now defunct. Company 2: Local office closed, but profitable at the time; self-performed lobotomy followed by self-performed castration, and now defunct. Company 3: Startup, profitable but no new business coming in; essentially sold. Company 4: Just exited chapter 11 bankruptcy; 23 years and still here!
Software Zen:
delete this; -
A full time employee at 11 companies in 26 years yields an average length of service of ~2.4 years. Wow! :wtf: Not to be rude but... why do you change jobs so often? Surely that comes up in interviews. :omg: In February 2014 I will have been at my current company for 28 years. There have been a few non-profitable years here and there but as a whole we are quite profitable.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
A statistic I saw somewhere said that in the Software industry the average time for a developer with one employer is around 18 months so 2-4 years seems good (I have about the same ratio) having had three companies go bust while I was working for them, and in one case the owner fled the country with the FBI and the IRS in hot pursuit! My question is, and I don't mean to cause offence but, how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years? Sorry, but you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
why do you change jobs so often?
Layoffs. Usually because the company was in fiscal free fall. Half of those weren't actually profitable when I was hired! Like I said, of the ten former companies, five don't exist anymore (they aren't shells of their former selves; they no longer exist at all.) In one case, the company owners had a bitter divorce. The ex-wife stayed on as CFO, the ex-husband as CEO. One day they got especially pissed at each other and laid off everyone working for them but whom the other had hired. Several, including myself, got caught up in the mess. The most common thread is that the companies which expanded the fastest, especially with over hiring, fell the hardest. As for interviews, my experience is fairly common where I live and most people have heard of the companies in question. In one case, in every interview I was asked "what IS going on over there?" Almost everyone they were interviewing was from that company. (When I was laid off from there, the remaining employees were told that this layoff would stabilize the company and there was nothing to worry about. Four months later they had a massive layoff. A similar thing happened ten years ago during the dot com crash--the company had a layoff, said everything would be fine, and then a few months later declared chapter 7 bankruptcy.) BTW, if you add up all my contracting, my length of service averages even less. But, that's averages.
I guess (depending POV) I've been lucky. Over my 28 years here I've moved around a bit, traveled the world a bit and have been well compensated. I started in mechanical engineering, evolved into pure IT, then returned to engineering concentrating on machine controls and now managing the department. I know some (most?) people would get bored staying at one company for so long but it works for me. This place must not be too bad because there are at least a dozen people here with longer tenures and we only employ ~300 worldwide.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
In the late 90s and early 00s, I was headhunted extensively: I still had resumes circulating where I admitted to knowing COBOL. I chose -- regretfully at the time -- to stay with the company I was with. Almost 18 years later, I'm still with this company and doing quite well. As far as I can tell, none of the companies that had been falling all over themselves to get me exist any more.
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We worked for Kodak at the same time! At that time, I worked for Dayton Operations. I still work for Kodak, but we're called IPS (Integrated Print Solutions, or some rot like that) now.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary Wheeler wrote:
We worked for Kodak at the same time! At that time, I worked for Dayton Operations.
:thumbsup: I was at KBDC (Kodak Boston Development Center). Kodak was a great gig! I've made life-long friends there. We had an awesome manager - she now runs R&D @ Frog. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
20+ years, 3 companies, 2 still alive.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
We worked for Kodak at the same time! At that time, I worked for Dayton Operations.
:thumbsup: I was at KBDC (Kodak Boston Development Center). Kodak was a great gig! I've made life-long friends there. We had an awesome manager - she now runs R&D @ Frog. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Despite the Chapter 11, Kodak is still a good place to work, at least for me. I'm doing things I enjoy, and the company seems to be more sane than a lot of the places my friends work.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
Most of the companies I have worked for no longer exist. In every case the result has always ended in better employment. :) The company before my current position was bought out and liquidated and production sent offshore. The CEO of that company ended up in jail for throwing a two million dollar toga party for his wife's birthday party using a million of the compnay's money. Details.[^]
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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I guess (depending POV) I've been lucky. Over my 28 years here I've moved around a bit, traveled the world a bit and have been well compensated. I started in mechanical engineering, evolved into pure IT, then returned to engineering concentrating on machine controls and now managing the department. I know some (most?) people would get bored staying at one company for so long but it works for me. This place must not be too bad because there are at least a dozen people here with longer tenures and we only employ ~300 worldwide.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Mike Mullikin wrote:
mechanical engineering
My experience is that companies that have a hardware component tend to be more stable than pure software companies. I tend to work for pure software companies, which come and go like dust in the wind. Incidentally, the below comment isn't a joke; at most places I worked at, we wouldn't even consider someone who hadn't worked at multiple companies. This isn't out of spite, but because the work tends to resemble contract type work more than long term stable work. I don't know if I could stay at one place 28 years, but I planned on staying at my last two companies more than seven and nine months respectively. The first of the two was an awesome company in all respects. Then the president died and they were bought by the biggest jerk company in the area (which is owned by one of the worse Private Equity firms out there.) Since then, almost everyone who wasn't laid off, has quit in disgust. My last company had the best product in their niche, but management were lying, vindictive, micromanaging, crazy bastards. Among many other things, they made the mistake of hiring based on future, hoped for gross sales, not actual earnings. They also tried to do too many things, leaving them vulnerable to startups concentrating on one sub-niche. The only company I truly regret leaving was three companies ago. The commute was hell, they weren't giving me the raises promised and which I deserved and I was tired of arguing over several issues (ironically, I was totally vindicated months after I left.) Still, I really enjoyed the people I worked with, their product is kick ass and I had the best manager ever. If they matched my current salary, I'd probably go back.
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27 for me in June. (1) 1987-1994 - DEC = Extinct :( (2) 1994-2000 - Kodak (Digital & Applied Imaging Group) = Extinct :( (3) 2000-2003 - Startup 1 = Crashed and burned :( (4) 2003-2006 - Startup 2 = Acquired by Oracle :thumbsup: (5) 2006-2007 - Company 3 = Acquired by Microsoft :thumbsup: (6) 2007-2011 - Company 4 = Alive and well :thumbsup: (7) 2011-now - Startup 3 = Acquired by Ceridian :thumbsup: /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
DEC = Extinct
It's only mostly dead.
This space intentionally left blank.
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
DEC = Extinct
It's only mostly dead.
This space intentionally left blank.
True dat. OpenVMS is alive and well![^] :thumbsup: /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
Company 1 - 15 years - asked to leave but believe it was rif - alive and well Company 2 - 13 years - mutual departure before rif - company alive, branch office/division gone Company 3 - 2 years - left - doing okay last I heard Company 4 - Still there - they say going good Not bad for 38 years.
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A statistic I saw somewhere said that in the Software industry the average time for a developer with one employer is around 18 months so 2-4 years seems good (I have about the same ratio) having had three companies go bust while I was working for them, and in one case the owner fled the country with the FBI and the IRS in hot pursuit! My question is, and I don't mean to cause offence but, how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years? Sorry, but you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
I don't mean to cause offence
None taken.
Forogar wrote:
how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years
1. As I mentioned in another post I've been in 4 different positions over these 28 years. 2. After having grown up with some instability (father was a carpenter so work was kind of volatile) I prefer stability. 3. My company makes very complex, specialized machine tools. Each project can last several years and it takes a couple years experience before new hires are really up to speed. 4. Did I mention I'm WELL compensated? ;)
Forogar wrote:
you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
Different world I guess. When I'm hiring its the exact opposite - I shun job hoppers as a waste of my time and money.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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A statistic I saw somewhere said that in the Software industry the average time for a developer with one employer is around 18 months so 2-4 years seems good (I have about the same ratio) having had three companies go bust while I was working for them, and in one case the owner fled the country with the FBI and the IRS in hot pursuit! My question is, and I don't mean to cause offence but, how come you have been so stuck in a rut to still be doing the same old job for 28 years? Sorry, but you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Forogar wrote:
you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
Just out of curiosity... what negative attribute would be assumed about someone for staying at one company for 28 years?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
1st company (7 years) bought by a big fish 2 years after I left... 2nd company (17 years) still around but it's harder every day 3rd company - I'm looking for it...
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A full time employee at 11 companies in 26 years yields an average length of service of ~2.4 years. Wow! :wtf: Not to be rude but... why do you change jobs so often? Surely that comes up in interviews. :omg: In February 2014 I will have been at my current company for 28 years. There have been a few non-profitable years here and there but as a whole we are quite profitable.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Forogar wrote:
you wouldn't even get to the interview stage with that record.
Just out of curiosity... what negative attribute would be assumed about someone for staying at one company for 28 years?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Breadth of knowledge and experience. I was sitting in on an interview (my boss had dragged this guy in without asking my opinion) and he was the senior programmer where he was after having worked there for 18 years. He had a PhD and thought he knew all he needed to know. It turns out he was not much better than an old C programmer following pre-written specs for an industry he knew very well. He might as well have been writing COBOL for all the advance techniques he knew (or rather, didn't know). He had no flexibility, he only knew about one thing and he was very, very good at that one thing. It actually boiled down to attitude more than actual skill set. He wasn't the only one like that. All the people I was involved in interviewing (at this company and a few others) seemed to have the same problem. If they had been at one place, even going through the promotion steps with expanding responsibilities, they seemed to have a single-focus attitude and a narrow outlook. Not 100% of the time, but nearly.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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In April, I will have been a professional developer for 26 years. I'm now working for my eleventh company as a paid employee (thus not counting all the contracts I've done.) Most the companies I worked for weren't very healthy and were having problems. Out of curiosity, I made a list of all the companies, whether I resigned or was laid off, whether they were profitable when I exited and if they are still around. Not counting my current position (a company that has always been quite profitable and still is), here are the results: Companies: 10 Resigned: 4** Profitable upon exit: 3* Still around: 4.5 (half for Novell which is a shadow of its former self.) * One company has a massive debt, but runs solidly in the black otherwise, so I counted it as profitable. Another has since recovered, but was losing money when I was laid off. I was laid off from a third the day it was bought. It was profitable and is still around, but the new owners have driven into the ground. ** One of the companies which isn't around is one I started and ran in the late 90s. On tax returns it made a profit until the very end, but only because I often didn't pay myself. After the CDROM-based infotainment market collapsed in 1997/98, I used the company for contracting. I made several thousand on my last contract and officially shut the company down at the end of that month. Still, I didn't count it as profitable. And, while I voluntarily exited, any other choice wasn't practical.
Companies: 4 Resigned: 1 Profitable upon exit: 1 ( still working at the 3rd company, but this company is going strong) 1st company I worked for is no longer around. Recently, I saw on LinkedIn my former CEO is now at another company. 2nd company still around and most likely going strong. Was extremely happy on leaving because they supposedly needed a programmer and I rarely programmed. My biggest contention with them was the negative work environment. I still have nightmares that I am forced to work there again. I left as soon as I could. I was there for only 13 months. 3rd company still around and growing fast. I still work here with 2+ years and hoping that I can stay here longer. The work environment here is so positive that not only co-workers do events to make it positive, but HR invests a pretty penny to make working here enjoyable. 4th company is something I am starting myself. Never started a company before, but it is quite a challenge working a day job and coming home to work on your company. Still trying to find the balance between the two. (So far it is not profitable). Interesting discussion you raised.
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Breadth of knowledge and experience. I was sitting in on an interview (my boss had dragged this guy in without asking my opinion) and he was the senior programmer where he was after having worked there for 18 years. He had a PhD and thought he knew all he needed to know. It turns out he was not much better than an old C programmer following pre-written specs for an industry he knew very well. He might as well have been writing COBOL for all the advance techniques he knew (or rather, didn't know). He had no flexibility, he only knew about one thing and he was very, very good at that one thing. It actually boiled down to attitude more than actual skill set. He wasn't the only one like that. All the people I was involved in interviewing (at this company and a few others) seemed to have the same problem. If they had been at one place, even going through the promotion steps with expanding responsibilities, they seemed to have a single-focus attitude and a narrow outlook. Not 100% of the time, but nearly.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Different worlds I guess - At my company it doesn't matter if a new hire is fresh out of school, has 15 years experience at 7 different companies using all the latest whiz-bang stuff or a 30 year PhD specialist - they're going to be learning a lot about our machines, controls and industry for at least 2 years before they start to become productive. If we don't try to avoid job hoppers we're dead - hell, I'm pissed when one of our engineers leaves in less than 10 years. :doh:
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
mechanical engineering
My experience is that companies that have a hardware component tend to be more stable than pure software companies. I tend to work for pure software companies, which come and go like dust in the wind. Incidentally, the below comment isn't a joke; at most places I worked at, we wouldn't even consider someone who hadn't worked at multiple companies. This isn't out of spite, but because the work tends to resemble contract type work more than long term stable work. I don't know if I could stay at one place 28 years, but I planned on staying at my last two companies more than seven and nine months respectively. The first of the two was an awesome company in all respects. Then the president died and they were bought by the biggest jerk company in the area (which is owned by one of the worse Private Equity firms out there.) Since then, almost everyone who wasn't laid off, has quit in disgust. My last company had the best product in their niche, but management were lying, vindictive, micromanaging, crazy bastards. Among many other things, they made the mistake of hiring based on future, hoped for gross sales, not actual earnings. They also tried to do too many things, leaving them vulnerable to startups concentrating on one sub-niche. The only company I truly regret leaving was three companies ago. The commute was hell, they weren't giving me the raises promised and which I deserved and I was tired of arguing over several issues (ironically, I was totally vindicated months after I left.) Still, I really enjoyed the people I worked with, their product is kick ass and I had the best manager ever. If they matched my current salary, I'd probably go back.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
pure software companies, which come and go like dust in the wind.
I wonder if there is an inverse causation between employee turnover and company stability.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
