Joel On Software - Online communities
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I chose not to choose life - I chose something else -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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nobody goes into an empty restaurant, they'll always go into the full one next door even if it's totally rubbish. BS. I go to the empty restaurant because it is higher quality (and often more expensive) and/or it serves food that actually utilizes herbs and spices, unlike the bleached flour crap that Americans seem to go for. Software forums and restaurants is a really bad analogy too. The two are completely different paradims for interaction. What happens is that people go to the group to ask a question. If you offer the "notify me" checkbox, these people will post their question, check the box, and never come back. They'll just read the replies in their mailbox. The end. Dude. It's called PRODUCTIVITY. It's one of the best features of CP, because after I get them email notification (which hasn't been working too well recently! :(( ) I then click on the link that CP has so graciously given me and I can instantly go to my message, read all the other replies, AND browse through other forum messages. Saves me tons of time! Branching is very logical to a programmer's mind but it doesn't correspond to the way conversations take place in the real world. Conversations in the real world suffer from an incredibly low bandwidth specifically because branching does NOT take place. Branching, while it can be distracting, dramatically increases the bandwidth of conversation by allowing new concepts to be introduced which, in conversation, are difficult, if not impossible to keep track of. Most people's "stack" is only about 2-3 items deep. There are books on how to increase your "stack" size so you can have conversations of greater depth and breadth. but if I put a "reply" link anywhere but the bottom of the page that would positively encourage people to spew their little gems before they've read what's already there. Dude. People don't read. Their interested in getting there own opinion down. They don't care whether someone else has said something already. At least, the dumb people don't. And for some reason, I find that there are very few repetitions in CP replies. Maybe we just have a smarter community than the other guys. :-D Because that will tempt you to quote a part of it in your own reply. Anything I can do to reduce the amount of quoting will increase the fluidity of the conversation, making topics interesting to read. What BS is this? The best thing is to be able to quote from a long (or even a short) post so that I know the context in whic
Marc Clifton wrote: Branching is very logical to a programmer's mind but it doesn't correspond to the way conversations take place in the real world. I've read a few forums where all the posts were in chronological order, with no indentation. It made it hard to follow a sub-thread. Forums aren't supposed to like real conversations - that's what chat rooms are for. Forums are there so that you can read the threads later, and to be able to do that, the posts need to be logically grouped.
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Anyone read the latest article in JoelOnSoftware, about Building Communities with Software[^]? Pretty interesting. I'd say CP is about 50% compliant with his principles. I immediately recognized some CP features on his no-no list (such as "Notify me by e-mail", or quoting other posts). But to me, CP is not the same as most forums; it's more of a regularly-visited community than a question/answer forum.
I have tremendous respect for Joel for one simple reason: you know who he is, to the point that many consider him a deity. Unless you've spent any time at all in the promotional world, you'll just never appreciate the extremes of that accomplishment. <Looks over shoulder to make sure Chris M. isn't listening, so as to avoid any unnecessary swelling of his head> Chris M. would understand this from a personal perspective, as he has also gone from absolutely scratch to having one of the premier developer sites on the web. "If you build it, they will come." is the greatest fallicy to which web developers succumb. If you build it, you will be ignored. If you promote it, they will come. These guys understand this. How did Joel go from a guy working on a software project to a popular cult figure on the topic of software development? How did he go from being a complete unknown to not only getting a lot of attention, but respect as well? What steps did he take to spread the Gospel of Joel, and to get others to do the same with rabid enthusiasm? Truth be known, I have only a passing interest in his thoughts on software development, placing them no higher or lower than the things I hear from my friends here. However, in terms of promotion he's one of my heros, as is Chris M. When they talk about increasing visibility, I listen. They have results that demonstrate that they know what they're talking about. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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I chose not to choose life - I chose something else -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
[Warning foul language below, but totally called for] benjymous wrote: I chose not to choose life - I chose something else "Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family, Choose a fucking big television Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing sprit-crushing game shows Stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home Nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked-up brats You have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life. " Awesome track! I have both Trainspotting album CDs and I listen to them regularly. PF Project ruled in this track.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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nobody goes into an empty restaurant, they'll always go into the full one next door even if it's totally rubbish. BS. I go to the empty restaurant because it is higher quality (and often more expensive) and/or it serves food that actually utilizes herbs and spices, unlike the bleached flour crap that Americans seem to go for. Software forums and restaurants is a really bad analogy too. The two are completely different paradims for interaction. What happens is that people go to the group to ask a question. If you offer the "notify me" checkbox, these people will post their question, check the box, and never come back. They'll just read the replies in their mailbox. The end. Dude. It's called PRODUCTIVITY. It's one of the best features of CP, because after I get them email notification (which hasn't been working too well recently! :(( ) I then click on the link that CP has so graciously given me and I can instantly go to my message, read all the other replies, AND browse through other forum messages. Saves me tons of time! Branching is very logical to a programmer's mind but it doesn't correspond to the way conversations take place in the real world. Conversations in the real world suffer from an incredibly low bandwidth specifically because branching does NOT take place. Branching, while it can be distracting, dramatically increases the bandwidth of conversation by allowing new concepts to be introduced which, in conversation, are difficult, if not impossible to keep track of. Most people's "stack" is only about 2-3 items deep. There are books on how to increase your "stack" size so you can have conversations of greater depth and breadth. but if I put a "reply" link anywhere but the bottom of the page that would positively encourage people to spew their little gems before they've read what's already there. Dude. People don't read. Their interested in getting there own opinion down. They don't care whether someone else has said something already. At least, the dumb people don't. And for some reason, I find that there are very few repetitions in CP replies. Maybe we just have a smarter community than the other guys. :-D Because that will tempt you to quote a part of it in your own reply. Anything I can do to reduce the amount of quoting will increase the fluidity of the conversation, making topics interesting to read. What BS is this? The best thing is to be able to quote from a long (or even a short) post so that I know the context in whic
Marc Clifton wrote: Well. I've learned two things. 1. CP rocks [edit]um...I already knew that! It just got validated again.[/edit] 2. Joel is not as cool as I once thought I wonder if he'll read this. Well said, all of it. Thing is I think he is coming from a totally different environment for discussion forums. He should make note of that and not generalise his opinions. But yeah, not as cool as I once thought either.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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Marc Clifton wrote: Branching is very logical to a programmer's mind but it doesn't correspond to the way conversations take place in the real world. I've read a few forums where all the posts were in chronological order, with no indentation. It made it hard to follow a sub-thread. Forums aren't supposed to like real conversations - that's what chat rooms are for. Forums are there so that you can read the threads later, and to be able to do that, the posts need to be logically grouped.
Yes, that too! Good point. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
automatic and accurate content language translation is a killer app for online communities, IMHO. Feels like you are at home. While we are it, anyone knows the ratio of non-english audience on the net ?
.S.Rod. wrote: While we are it, anyone knows the ratio of non-english audience on the net ? Some time ago I read somewhere that only 40 per cent of the web users understand english. I just wonder what the other 60% speak?
Shaken, stirred, or strained through a diaper, nothing can make a martini palatable. Roger Wright, Soapbox
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Anyone read the latest article in JoelOnSoftware, about Building Communities with Software[^]? Pretty interesting. I'd say CP is about 50% compliant with his principles. I immediately recognized some CP features on his no-no list (such as "Notify me by e-mail", or quoting other posts). But to me, CP is not the same as most forums; it's more of a regularly-visited community than a question/answer forum.
I have always liked Joels article, but I'm not able to agree to all of what he says in this article,'cause most of what he said in his earlier articles where too good, it was actually reflecting on whats happening in most places, but this one certainly not that kind. Cheers, Kannan
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.S.Rod. wrote: While we are it, anyone knows the ratio of non-english audience on the net ? Some time ago I read somewhere that only 40 per cent of the web users understand english. I just wonder what the other 60% speak?
Shaken, stirred, or strained through a diaper, nothing can make a martini palatable. Roger Wright, Soapbox
Thanks. Andreas Saurwein wrote: I just wonder what the other 60% speak? The simplest way to know is to post generalized insults in non-english languages, and wait the answer. :eek: While we are it, a whois lookup just told me codeproject.fr is available. Good to know...
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nobody goes into an empty restaurant, they'll always go into the full one next door even if it's totally rubbish. BS. I go to the empty restaurant because it is higher quality (and often more expensive) and/or it serves food that actually utilizes herbs and spices, unlike the bleached flour crap that Americans seem to go for. Software forums and restaurants is a really bad analogy too. The two are completely different paradims for interaction. What happens is that people go to the group to ask a question. If you offer the "notify me" checkbox, these people will post their question, check the box, and never come back. They'll just read the replies in their mailbox. The end. Dude. It's called PRODUCTIVITY. It's one of the best features of CP, because after I get them email notification (which hasn't been working too well recently! :(( ) I then click on the link that CP has so graciously given me and I can instantly go to my message, read all the other replies, AND browse through other forum messages. Saves me tons of time! Branching is very logical to a programmer's mind but it doesn't correspond to the way conversations take place in the real world. Conversations in the real world suffer from an incredibly low bandwidth specifically because branching does NOT take place. Branching, while it can be distracting, dramatically increases the bandwidth of conversation by allowing new concepts to be introduced which, in conversation, are difficult, if not impossible to keep track of. Most people's "stack" is only about 2-3 items deep. There are books on how to increase your "stack" size so you can have conversations of greater depth and breadth. but if I put a "reply" link anywhere but the bottom of the page that would positively encourage people to spew their little gems before they've read what's already there. Dude. People don't read. Their interested in getting there own opinion down. They don't care whether someone else has said something already. At least, the dumb people don't. And for some reason, I find that there are very few repetitions in CP replies. Maybe we just have a smarter community than the other guys. :-D Because that will tempt you to quote a part of it in your own reply. Anything I can do to reduce the amount of quoting will increase the fluidity of the conversation, making topics interesting to read. What BS is this? The best thing is to be able to quote from a long (or even a short) post so that I know the context in whic
I'm guessing that each person who has built up an online community will have their own set of guidelines based on their specific audience, requirements and painful experience. What works for us doesn't work for others, and some ideas we've seen work on other sites simply don't work here. Points such as not quoting text makes sense for forums where the full text of all replies is visible, but makes less sense for our space-saving DHTML forums. I would bet 10 bucks that were I to write the same article Joel wrote I would get shot down in flames by his and every other community. The day there is a recipe for this kind of thing will be a sad day indeed. cheers, Chris Maunder
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I have tremendous respect for Joel for one simple reason: you know who he is, to the point that many consider him a deity. Unless you've spent any time at all in the promotional world, you'll just never appreciate the extremes of that accomplishment. <Looks over shoulder to make sure Chris M. isn't listening, so as to avoid any unnecessary swelling of his head> Chris M. would understand this from a personal perspective, as he has also gone from absolutely scratch to having one of the premier developer sites on the web. "If you build it, they will come." is the greatest fallicy to which web developers succumb. If you build it, you will be ignored. If you promote it, they will come. These guys understand this. How did Joel go from a guy working on a software project to a popular cult figure on the topic of software development? How did he go from being a complete unknown to not only getting a lot of attention, but respect as well? What steps did he take to spread the Gospel of Joel, and to get others to do the same with rabid enthusiasm? Truth be known, I have only a passing interest in his thoughts on software development, placing them no higher or lower than the things I hear from my friends here. However, in terms of promotion he's one of my heros, as is Chris M. When they talk about increasing visibility, I listen. They have results that demonstrate that they know what they're talking about. Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: you know who he is, to the point that many consider him a deity. There is another member of the CP community that might fall into this category too, but many regard him as something less than a deity. BILL something or other. I think one key difference is between promotion and self promotion. As I see it, neither Chris M. or Joel participate in self promotion. They get their word out, have people come and see (and support) what they do, but do it with some apparent humility. I see nothing at CP that comes from Chris M. saying "Hey look at me!!!" On the other hand, being able to download 18 gazillion gigabytes of crap INSTANTLY ... because "I am great and know what I am DOING" just falls into the bit bucket, because frankly, who cares? If what you do is noteworthy, then you won't have to promote yourself for it. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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Christopher Duncan wrote: you know who he is, to the point that many consider him a deity. There is another member of the CP community that might fall into this category too, but many regard him as something less than a deity. BILL something or other. I think one key difference is between promotion and self promotion. As I see it, neither Chris M. or Joel participate in self promotion. They get their word out, have people come and see (and support) what they do, but do it with some apparent humility. I see nothing at CP that comes from Chris M. saying "Hey look at me!!!" On the other hand, being able to download 18 gazillion gigabytes of crap INSTANTLY ... because "I am great and know what I am DOING" just falls into the bit bucket, because frankly, who cares? If what you do is noteworthy, then you won't have to promote yourself for it. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: I see nothing at CP that comes from Chris M. saying "Hey look at me!!!" http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?searchkw=geek&sd=12%2F4%2F2002&ed=3%2F4%2F2003&author=chris+maunder&select=422857&df=100&forumid=1159&noise=1&app=50#xx422857xx[^] not far away :-O (but I think you meant something else)
Shaken, stirred, or strained through a diaper, nothing can make a martini palatable. Roger Wright, Soapbox
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[Warning foul language below, but totally called for] benjymous wrote: I chose not to choose life - I chose something else "Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family, Choose a fucking big television Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing sprit-crushing game shows Stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home Nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked-up brats You have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life. " Awesome track! I have both Trainspotting album CDs and I listen to them regularly. PF Project ruled in this track.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Two of my favourite tracks from Trainspotting were by Iggy Pop, I didn't really know about him before that :wtf: 'Nightclubbing' was so wonderfully depressing :laugh: Elaine The tigress is here :-D
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Christopher Duncan wrote: you know who he is, to the point that many consider him a deity. There is another member of the CP community that might fall into this category too, but many regard him as something less than a deity. BILL something or other. I think one key difference is between promotion and self promotion. As I see it, neither Chris M. or Joel participate in self promotion. They get their word out, have people come and see (and support) what they do, but do it with some apparent humility. I see nothing at CP that comes from Chris M. saying "Hey look at me!!!" On the other hand, being able to download 18 gazillion gigabytes of crap INSTANTLY ... because "I am great and know what I am DOING" just falls into the bit bucket, because frankly, who cares? If what you do is noteworthy, then you won't have to promote yourself for it. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
I definitely agree with the spirit of what you're saying. However, even self promotion is not necessarily negative. While Chris' product is a web site, to a degree a part of Joel's product is “Joel, the Personality” (much as some radio announcers are personalities and as such a marketable commodity). In that regard, self promotion is a practical necessity. If you are the product, then there are times when you do have to say, "Hey, look at me!" And that's pretty tricky stuff. I think the key is as you noted - humility, sincerity and good taste. As an author, consultant & head of a seminar company, to a degree I, too, am the product, so these issues are very real to me. You have to let the world know that you exist and that there's something (hopefully) cool about what you offer, and yet do so in a way that doesn't seem arrogant or self aggrandizing. It's a very fine line to walk for those of use who care about maintaining a positive image, and it's a craft that I keep learning about every day. That's why I admire the talents of someone like Joel, because he's able to promote "Joel, the Personality" without becoming the Informercial King. And that ain't easy to do... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Thanks. Andreas Saurwein wrote: I just wonder what the other 60% speak? The simplest way to know is to post generalized insults in non-english languages, and wait the answer. :eek: While we are it, a whois lookup just told me codeproject.fr is available. Good to know...
.S.Rod. wrote: While we are it, a whois lookup just told me codeproject.fr is available You dont dare :)
Shaken, stirred, or strained through a diaper, nothing can make a martini palatable. Roger Wright, Soapbox
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I definitely agree with the spirit of what you're saying. However, even self promotion is not necessarily negative. While Chris' product is a web site, to a degree a part of Joel's product is “Joel, the Personality” (much as some radio announcers are personalities and as such a marketable commodity). In that regard, self promotion is a practical necessity. If you are the product, then there are times when you do have to say, "Hey, look at me!" And that's pretty tricky stuff. I think the key is as you noted - humility, sincerity and good taste. As an author, consultant & head of a seminar company, to a degree I, too, am the product, so these issues are very real to me. You have to let the world know that you exist and that there's something (hopefully) cool about what you offer, and yet do so in a way that doesn't seem arrogant or self aggrandizing. It's a very fine line to walk for those of use who care about maintaining a positive image, and it's a craft that I keep learning about every day. That's why I admire the talents of someone like Joel, because he's able to promote "Joel, the Personality" without becoming the Informercial King. And that ain't easy to do... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: As an author, consultant & head of a seminar company, to a degree I, too, am the product, I think there is a fine line, but are you really the product or is your service the product. I would argue that I am purchasing your service. You, in effect, become the ... middle man? I think a similar line goes for developers. I provide a service, which is analysis, design, implementation, integration, etc, of software. Certainly I must project a trustworthy and professional manner, in order to instill confidence in customers for the software I develop. But, from the other side, if the software works as designed and does the job it was intended to to by the customers, then I benefit from the success of the software. The person and the product go hand in hand, and if either the person sucks or the software sucks, neither is likely to succeed. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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Christopher Duncan wrote: As an author, consultant & head of a seminar company, to a degree I, too, am the product, I think there is a fine line, but are you really the product or is your service the product. I would argue that I am purchasing your service. You, in effect, become the ... middle man? I think a similar line goes for developers. I provide a service, which is analysis, design, implementation, integration, etc, of software. Certainly I must project a trustworthy and professional manner, in order to instill confidence in customers for the software I develop. But, from the other side, if the software works as designed and does the job it was intended to to by the customers, then I benefit from the success of the software. The person and the product go hand in hand, and if either the person sucks or the software sucks, neither is likely to succeed. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: You, in effect, become the ... middle man? :eek: That sounds precariously close to Middle Mangement... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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MS le Roux wrote: CP is not the same as most forums; it's more of a regularly-visited community than a question/answer forum No my friend, CP is a way of life... :)
But I am fantastic in bed! And there are gorgeous women in all the houses I pass. And it would be wrong to leave them unsatisfied! So spam is the only way... - Paul Watson
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Gods do not reply to mere mortals Uwe... BTW did you get my reply on the Citrix Zeta effort? If not (our email has been a bit odd of late) then thank you very much, very cool from what I saw. I have a floating 2 hours set aside to go through the system fully at some time. But thanks for your time :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Gods do not reply to mere mortals Uwe... That must be the reason. I should have figured it out by myself... ;-) Yes, I think I got your reply (was somme bit longer ago?!?) So if you have any questions, just give me a call/mail/messenger (uwe_keim@hotmail.com) - would be really cool to have a partner/user on nearly the other side of the world! -- - Free Windows-based CMS: www.zeta-software.de/enu/producer/freeware/download.html - See me: www.magerquark.de