Use of torture in interrogation

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Christian Graus wrote: If you're a Christian, why do you want to do good only to those who do good to you ? Is that what Jesus said ? That's exactly how I remember the NT. What he just said reminded me more of the OT, where an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was the main theme. Personally, I think the NT conveys a far better message than OT. What strikes me is that eventhough he claims to be a Christian, he does not follow the words of Jesus Christ. (Which is the definition of Christianity, right?) His statement makes me feel more Christian than he claims to be. :~ -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Jorgen Sigvardsson

bryce wrote: its a means to an end. That's how most dictators have justified their actions. -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Brad Jennings wrote: My moral standing on this lies in the Bible where it says that you should love your enemies. Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. Can't remember who said it, but it's a good rule of thumb. -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Eddie Velasquez

Christian Graus wrote: If you're a Christian, why do you want to do good only to those who do good to you ? Is that what Jesus said ? I'm obviously not a very "good" christian then. I just cannot accept the fact that we should let the ones that want to erradicate us achieve their goals. For me it's a matter of survival because they made it so. Christian Graus wrote: and make the lives of those who hate you as miserable as possible It's doesn't bother me that somebody hates me. I really don't care as long as they don't actively try to erradicate us at the first chance they have.

There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Eddie Velasquez

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: What strikes me is that eventhough he claims to be a Christian, he does not follow the words of Jesus Christ If you are refering to me you are completely right. I used the word "christian" more like a an adjective that made me "worthy of disposal" in the eyes of the fanatics and extremists. I was not trying to "brag" among all the saints that lurk in in the lounge trying to enlighten the rest of us poor sinners. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: His statement makes me feel more Christian than he claims to be. I'm really glad that I made you feel better about yourself.

There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Eddie Velasquez wrote: I'm really glad that I made you feel better about yourself. It didn't make me feel any worse or any better. I'm not Christian, it just happens that some of my ideals coincide with Christian ideals. But I do find it strange that some people claim to be true Christians one moment, just to throw all the Christian ideals out the window the next moment. I might be wrong, but being Christian isn't something that only applies on Sundays, it's a 24 hr/day commitment. Continually commiting and seeking forgiveness for the same sins all over again is not repenting. At least not in my book. Now, I'm not putting you on trial for whether you are a true Christian or not. But you did indeed claim to be a Christian, eventhough you've clearly haven't listened to half of what JC said. If you had, you wouldn't be so full of hate, which you obviously are, since you're prepared to torture another human being. True Christian or not, don't you have any empathy for those who are tortured, no matter what they've done or would do? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Sean Winstead

The USA is the only country in the world where ANY criticism of the nation is taken personally by it's members. Interesting. Do you think that I believe you're responsible for the policies of your country ? How dumb is that ? As dumb as you like. Despite its shortcomings, it's still a government for the people and by the people. The president, etc. are representatives of who we are as a people. IMO, when you're talking about America, you're talking about its people. Perhaps that has something to do with it. You're basically saying that you don't condone torture until you feel like it. No. I'm saying, in general, most of us say how we think we will act but when under pressure, the story changes. We don't always live out tough situations the way we think we will, for whatever reason. Sean Winstead

Christian Graus

Eddie Velasquez wrote: I really don't care as long as they don't actively try to erradicate us at the first chance they have. That's fine, I'm all for chasing down those who want to kill you, but I'm against killing them first, if they can be captured, and certainly against making them suffer in the name of revenge, or torture as a means to any end. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

Eddie Velasquez

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: But you did indeed claim to be a Christian As I said before, I mentioned my religion because in the eyes of these extremists and terrorists this is more than enough to make me (and you and anyone that is not part of their group) a valid target. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: eventhough you've clearly haven't listened to half of what JC said. I'm only 36 years old, so unfortunately I missed all of Jesus's speeches ;-). Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If you had, you wouldn't be so full of hate I am not full of hate, I am full of fear, which is different. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: since you're prepared to torture another human being I am not prepared to torture another human being. As a matter of a fact I feel unable to intentionally inflict pain on another human being. What I said, which you seem to have missed, is that under certain very clear circumstances, I think torture is a valid option when the information received might save the lifes of innumerable innocent victims. Remember, these groups play by a very different set of rules.

There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

Eddie Velasquez

Christian Graus wrote: but I'm against killing them first, if they can be captured I'm for getting rid of the threat that they pose. But sure, if they can be captured, that is a better option. Christian Graus wrote: certainly against making them suffer in the name of revenge Me too. Christian Graus wrote: torture as a means to any end With this I disagree. I believe that there are some special circumstances where I find torure a valid option. (Notice that I said a valid option, not the ONLY option)

There are only 10 kind of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

bryce

go on, quote one. seriously though, i'm not saying its a pleasant thing to do to someone and given the option its one we all would like avoid, however there is a time and a place for deal with people like that to extract information for the greater good....and the greater good in this case is savign lives and stamping out terrorism. and if that makes me a dictator, then a dictator i am, and all those who wouldnt take the opportunity to save others are lesser mortals... We're playing one of the oldest philopphical games around, do the ends justify the means...been debated for years and it will be for years to come. What would you do to extract information from someone who had it (or by tacit approval have someone else do )...when that information would save lives? Is it not an honourable thing to save other's lives? even though the act we're discussing (torture) may not be. I say it is.:) cheers Bryce

Christian Graus

Sean Winstead wrote: Despite its shortcomings, it's still a government for the people and by the people. Bwhahahahahahahaa !!! You BUY that crap ? Sean Winstead wrote: We don't always live out tough situations the way we think we will, for whatever reason. I'll agree that the pressure needs to be on to really know how you will respond, but when we get to the point of being willing to break someones fingers and cut off their goolies, I'm 99% certain I know I could not do that. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic

Brad Jennings

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. Can't remember who said it, but it's a good rule of thumb. I couldn't agree more.:) Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies

Brad Jennings

Sean Winstead wrote: Despite its shortcomings, it's still a government for the people and by the people. I'm kindof with Christian on this (and I'm American), though you do raise a good point. Though it is a government for the people and by the people, I don't always condone what the government does. Sometimes I can't help but feel a little bit helpless to control what is going to go on with certain issues, such as Iraq. I guess that's why I never take posts like Christian's as an insult. And plus, politicians suck.:) Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies