Homework in QA
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Persuading others to do your work for you is a wonderful skill to learn.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
chriselst wrote:
Persuading others to do your work for you is a wonderful skill to learn.
Essential if you are going to manage a project. :-D
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Agree wholeheartedly with you on this one. Any question asked should be treated essentially the same; if the OP asks for help, why not give it? If responding to a guru or a novice, surely the skill in answering is to not just provide the answer, but some framework so the OP understands - which at the end of the day is what it's all about whether for a student or expert. Sure, some posts will just be "please give me code to ..." but whether for homework or the next big thing in mobile apps, the response needs to be guidance toward the goal, and not just the solution on a platter. When I have taught programming I actively encourage the students to look for help online if they are stuck; I usually guide them where to look, and monitor those resources and respond myself when I can - but it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
_Maxxx_ wrote:
it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
Sounds like, you know, when trying to teach you should, you know, learn to speak in terms that can be understood, you know what I am saying. :suss:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
_Maxxx_ wrote:
it is astonishing how one can explain something twenty ways to a blank-faced student, then someone else (as often as not another student) can say "It's like, you know, when that thing gets bigger, and like the other thing, you know?" and the original student's face lights up with understanding!
Sounds like, you know, when trying to teach you should, you know, learn to speak in terms that can be understood, you know what I am saying. :suss:
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Great point, they do deserve help as long as they are also putting in effort on their end. I think we all agree that the "codz pleez" crowd should be ignored at best. There is something else to consider as well. If we tell all of the students who come here and ask questions that we won't help them (often in less kind words), they will go somewhere else to get help. If they never come back, this community will eventually shrivel up and die. I'm here because I was able to get some questions answered early on, then I started reading the lounge, and I eventually started submitting a few articles. If I were rejected in those early questions I'd probably be contributing somewhere else entirely.
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Great point, they do deserve help as long as they are also putting in effort on their end. I think we all agree that the "codz pleez" crowd should be ignored at best. There is something else to consider as well. If we tell all of the students who come here and ask questions that we won't help them (often in less kind words), they will go somewhere else to get help. If they never come back, this community will eventually shrivel up and die. I'm here because I was able to get some questions answered early on, then I started reading the lounge, and I eventually started submitting a few articles. If I were rejected in those early questions I'd probably be contributing somewhere else entirely.
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If I have the power, I remove those posts or "edit" them to get rid of the code.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave KreskowiakI hope with the permission of the responder.
Gus Gustafson
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Because the usual idea of homework is not to produce a solution per se but to learn how to produce a solution.
I'm not disagreeing but isn't that the same for employment? I don't see why anyone is drawing the line between the two except for prejudicial reasons.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
but isn't that the same for employment?
I don't want to do someone else's work for them. I don't care whether they're asking because they have a homework problem they're trying to solve or a work problem they're trying to solve. The problem I have with homework is that often the little problem they need help with is the entire thing, whereas for work the little problem is part of a much larger whole.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Homework is a reflection of your own skill. If you do not have the skill then by asking someone else to help, you are just taking credit for something you did not do. Programming is not about getting a result. Programming evolves to quickly to make getting one result worth anything. A only good programmer is one that can learn everything they do not know. Learn to bash your head against the wall, answer your problem with others forums that are close to your problem and learn to manipulate the code. Only then will you be a master.
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we should not provide solution.
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job because they told someone they could code. Why the difference?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job
Its a matter of scale. I doubt anyone's sole job is to correctly write a singly linked list. It would be a very, very small part of what they are doing. Writing the code for a single linked list is likely all of the homework.
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If you try and get stuck, that's one thing.
Agreed. My point is I have seen some homework questions where they did show effort and the immediate responses by CP community where of no help.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
But why not? We provide solutions to people who got a job
Its a matter of scale. I doubt anyone's sole job is to correctly write a singly linked list. It would be a very, very small part of what they are doing. Writing the code for a single linked list is likely all of the homework.
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RyanDev wrote:
My point is I have seen some homework questions where they did show effort and the immediate responses by CP community where of no help.
So every question that you have seen that wasn't a homework question had only helpful answers?
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Easy. When the responders started giving away the answers, giving the OP, literally, "copy'n'paste this code" answers. Is the OP going to learn from having their code written for them? Absolutely not.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave KreskowiakDave Kreskowiak wrote:
Absolutely not.
Not sure I agree with that. Some would be helped by that. They will look at it and figure it out. Others might be helped because sometimes just getting anything to run at all can be a major part of the problem and frustration.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Absolutely not.
Not sure I agree with that. Some would be helped by that. They will look at it and figure it out. Others might be helped because sometimes just getting anything to run at all can be a major part of the problem and frustration.
Yeah, there's way too many "students" that just copy'n'paste the code and turn it in without even trying to understand it. It's real obvious when they can't pass the tests in class, right after they just turned in the project.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
How to debug small programs
Dave Kreskowiak -
So? Why not offer help regardless of magnitude of project?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Since when did asking a homework question in QA become so frowned upon? I agree when someone has not shown any effort that it can be hard to help them and I personally don't want to write all the code for them; however, too often I see people jump to the conclusion that if it is homework they don't deserve help. Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
Whether it is homework, regular work, or hobby if someone asks a question they should all be treated the same. Help if you can.
I agree with that, unfortunately, many homework questions (here and elsewhere) are very poor and only want a full solution when what they should be asking for is just some guidance.
CEO at: - Rafaga Systems - Para Facturas - Modern Components for the moment...
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At times, the teacher might not allow outside help, because that would provide an unfair advantage over other students. An assignment might even be a take-home test. Although, I do expect that getting help is often allowed; and I think it fairest to give the questioner the benefit of the doubt. If they are dishonest and cheating, then there is a public record. I am more inclined to answer such questions if it appears the person is using their own name for that reason, but I can see answering some questions anyway, again, the presumption of innocence seems fairest. However, I won't answer certain questions that seem to be a homework assignment because of the form of the question. If a teacher gives an assignment, then I presume all the necessary information has already been provided to the student. They only need to read the book, or the notes, and/or pay attention in class, and then they should be able to "try" to create a solution, and then ask a question of the form, "I did this, but that part isn't doing what I expect. What did I do wrong?" It's not appropriate to ask, "How do I do ?," without showing any work when is clearly the major part of the assignment, perhaps even all of it.
You give a lot of generic credit to teachers that I don't know you should. I had several really bad professors in university that the entire class would get together for hours after class to try and figure out what he really meant, which of course, made homework impossible to do. Bad professors tend to pick bad books, so the two together means that you have no resources other than potentially other professors. At my high school, there was a music teacher that was attempting to teach all of the calculus classes after she had slept her way to get the math department chairmanship. The only math class she had ever taught was a remedial math course, and it was obvious that her own understanding of the subject was questionable, and she did it despite the fact that there were multiple other teachers who had taught the course before. If my dad wasn't a math professor, I seriously doubt that I would have made it through the class. Admittedly, I found computer science courses abysmally easy, and only made the course interesting by including far more advanced features in addition what was asked for. It didn't give me extra credit, but at least I was able to keep focused by working on an interesting problem. The only reason I know that anyone found it hard at all was from people coming to me for help.
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How does this make sense in your brain? You always go off into the weeds. No thank you, I'm not going on that crazy train with you today.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
How does this make sense in your brain?
Because when you say "My point is I have seen some homework questions where they did show effort and the immediate responses by CP community where of no help." If in fact that happens on all types of questions, not just homework questions, then your statement is irrelevant in terms of just homework questions.
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RyanDev wrote:
How does this make sense in your brain?
Because when you say "My point is I have seen some homework questions where they did show effort and the immediate responses by CP community where of no help." If in fact that happens on all types of questions, not just homework questions, then your statement is irrelevant in terms of just homework questions.
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then your statement is irrelevant in terms of just homework questions.
No. It is my statement and it is what I said. You can't change it and then claim it to be mine still. You may see a relation to something else but you are expanding the context, not me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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then your statement is irrelevant in terms of just homework questions.
No. It is my statement and it is what I said. You can't change it and then claim it to be mine still. You may see a relation to something else but you are expanding the context, not me.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.