"Stealing" from the company?
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though. If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose. On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
That's ridiculous... And, as you say, almost impossible to check. Of course you shouldn't write articles while employed... :~
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
If you write a general log in script for a website on company time and then send yourself a copy of that script to use on your own personal website I think ethically you're fine. However, if you make that script available to the competition or compete with your current employer then you've got a problem. I think the intent of these restrictions is "we don't want our developers writing code for the competition".
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Related to R&D: Anything related to your position while a Federal (US) government employee is owned by the US Government; similar rules for many large companies. It makes sense: the US Gov't point of view is that you are using knowledge gained while employed by them, so the creation of the knowledge is their property. This all comes about, actually, as a consequence of the rules/laws that a Federal Employee is not permitted (aside from wages, etc.) from profiting from his association with the government. This extends to gifts from vendors (beyond, perhaps, a cup of coffee or very cheap pen). For a period of time, due to some scandals in congress, rules (=laws) were enacted of a nature whereby a Federal Employee could not earn money form speaking, even if totally unrelated to their work. This law, naturally, excluded senators and congressmen. It has since been fixed - only applying to work-related material (it's owned by the people and you cannot charge them for what is already theirs).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
so the creation of the knowledge is their property
So when going out of employment you should forget everything you learned while employed? That's a bit hard... Unless you're with the MIB ;)
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OriginalGriff wrote:
and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
That's ridiculous... And, as you say, almost impossible to check. Of course you shouldn't write articles while employed... :~
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs! I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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If you write a general log in script for a website on company time and then send yourself a copy of that script to use on your own personal website I think ethically you're fine. However, if you make that script available to the competition or compete with your current employer then you've got a problem. I think the intent of these restrictions is "we don't want our developers writing code for the competition".
Yeah, I've got an anti-competition clause, or what's it called, in my contract. In my case I can't do anything for a direct competitor while or three years after employment (but who are our competitors?). That last part goes without saying ;)
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Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs! I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote:
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
:laugh: Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for... :~
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote:
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
:laugh: Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for... :~
Do you get overtime payments if you work more than that?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt -
Do you get overtime payments if you work more than that?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yep. Or I wouldn't be working overtime :)
Lucky devil! I haven't had paid overtime for decades! :sigh: One company gave me an unexpected pay rise - and a generous one- which purely-by-accident just happened to move me above the 'you don't get paid overtime' threshold... :(
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote:
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... :laugh:
:laugh: Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for... :~
Sander Rossel wrote:
What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
It is if you're doing work that competes with your employers line of business. I have it written into my contract that I'm not allowed to do other work in the same line of business. Unnecessarily though as it's already in the law. They can't lay any claims to code you write that's not relevant to them though. What's relevant is obviously a grey area. :~
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Lucky devil! I haven't had paid overtime for decades! :sigh: One company gave me an unexpected pay rise - and a generous one- which purely-by-accident just happened to move me above the 'you don't get paid overtime' threshold... :(
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
To me it's simple, I sign a contract for 40 hours and a salary both my employer and I see fit. That's a salary for 40 hours, not 45 or 50. If I do work 45 or 50 hours I expect to be compensated accordingly. That said, I do all my work related study in my own time. When my company decided to use Entity Framework I spent some hours at home figuring out how that stuff works. I'm also not to uptight about working an exact 8 hours a day (like today I wanted to finish something and stayed 15 minutes longer) or getting every extra minute compensated. And it depends on the employer. If they're getting uptight about something then so will I :)
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Sander Rossel wrote:
What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
It is if you're doing work that competes with your employers line of business. I have it written into my contract that I'm not allowed to do other work in the same line of business. Unnecessarily though as it's already in the law. They can't lay any claims to code you write that's not relevant to them though. What's relevant is obviously a grey area. :~
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
Agreed on that. I was replying to the following:
OriginalGriff wrote:
and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I think it's totally an employers business what I do in my spare time as long as it concerns them. For example if I drink too much, party too hard or practice extreme sports, and as a result call in sick from work every monday or at least a month a year etc. In the Netherlands the employer pays for sick employees. And they cost A LOT! Another example is studying (or absolutely no studying!) during my private time.
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
You were paid, so it ain't yours. You might be able to claim intellectual copyright, but that would cost you a Hell of a lot more time (and lawyers' fees) than just writing new libraries -- they can't stop you from using your brain to do something in a similar way when you need to do something similar.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
Sander Rossel wrote:
Suppose I created some libraries at work
Wherever I've worked, any work done for the company becomes the property of the company. Of course, open-source and other publicly available information referenced in these works is not part of the company's IP, even though their code may be included. The terms of use of the open-source licenses always hold.
Sander Rossel wrote:
I could re-create them at home in a couple of days
Recreating work based on your learnings is permissible (that's what devs do throughout their career), as long as it doesn't infringe on patents, and even then, may be permissible by licensing use of the patent. Chances are, this will not apply to you. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Sander Rossel wrote:
Suppose I created some libraries at work
Wherever I've worked, any work done for the company becomes the property of the company. Of course, open-source and other publicly available information referenced in these works is not part of the company's IP, even though their code may be included. The terms of use of the open-source licenses always hold.
Sander Rossel wrote:
I could re-create them at home in a couple of days
Recreating work based on your learnings is permissible (that's what devs do throughout their career), as long as it doesn't infringe on patents, and even then, may be permissible by licensing use of the patent. Chances are, this will not apply to you. Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
Good, because I was going to sue you if any of the above DID apply to me :laugh: Luckily we don't have patents of any kind. That would suck if I wanted to re-use my idea's :~
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Suppose I created some libraries at work that we use thoroughly because they are awesome. And suppose I wanted to use them for private projects and maybe even professionally (just not at work where I created them). Would it be allright for me to just copy/paste those libraries to my own computer? Why would I think this might not be a problem? First of all I used the internet to create those libraries. Very few code is literally copy/pasted, but the code isn't completely mine either (and so not completely my companies', or maybe it is...). Secondly, I am the only one who wrote those libraries and the only one who knows how they work internally. I could re-create them at home in a couple of days. I even took some code from home and used it at work, although there is no way of proving this. For now I am fine with not having these libraries at home. If I really wanted them I could probably ask my boss and he'd be okay with it. I think legally if I took these libraries and my employer found out he could sue me and I'd be in big trouble (although it might be hard to prove I actually took those libraries and not re-created them, especially when I change some variable names etc.). I was just wondering how people here think about this, personally (as opposed to legally). Does anyone have experience with such matters?
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Pualee wrote:
You have already been compensated for their creation
Yeah, very true. How about the ideas? Would it be a problem if I re-created anything. After all, I've been compensated for that too ;)
So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
So a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials? No, that would be obtuse. Of course you can recreate the same code on your own time using your own materials. But for your safety I'd suggest renaming classes & methods, etc. But, you could also ask permission to use the libraries.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einsteinahmed zahmed wrote:
a carpenter is only allowed to build one table, one chair when it's for hire and can't go home and build the same exact chair and table using his own materials?
Not if the design is identical to the design that he made for the company, no.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
If you create the libraries on the company time, chances are that they own them.
Probably. Would they own the ideas of the libraries as well? I could easily re-create the libraries at home.
Sander Rossel wrote:
Would they own the ideas of the libraries as well?
Yes - depending on whether the libraries themselves were unique or just an implementation of existing ideas. e.g. if you wrote a maths library to perform various mathematical functions, then you couldn't take the source code and use it yourself, but you could write another maths library based on your knowledge, because maths libraries pre-existed your development of one. But if you wrote something unique then reproducing even the idea could be an issue.
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though. If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose. On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
OriginalGriff wrote:
ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I had a contract that said that. I queried it - what about PooperPig? "don't be silly, of course that's fine - we just mean work related to what you do in this company" "Good oh!" quoth I "then change the contract wording." It took about three or four drafts before I was happy to sign - even though it wouldn't really make a blind bit of difference because, as I understand it, the signature is only absolute proof you have read that copy of the contract - you are still bound by a contract in law regardless as to whether you have signed it, if you continue to work there, unless you can prove that the contract had not completed negotiations. So if they'd just said "tough!" I'd have no option but to accept it or leave.
