Our wonderful French Allies

pankajdaga

Cannot put it in better words than that :) It is amazing that most Americans expect their allies to wag their tails to everything they deem is correct. Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: And the problem with this is? those plans also include regime change in China - backed by the US military. call me anti-American, but i don't think a military adventure in China is in the US's best interest. these people want nothing short of Pax Americana (their phrase, not mine). they want the US to actively enforce its will over the rest of the world. remember, GWB campaigned on the idea that the US should avoid being the world's policeman - all the while knowing that his cabinet was dedicated to doing exactly the opposite. in fact, the report put out by these people in 2000 talks about the "constabulary duties" that the US will have to undertake in order to make this happen. so, all of you who voted for GWB on the idea that he would disentangle the US from policing the world - he sure fooled you. what's wrong with this? empire building doesn't work - history is full of examples. Doug Goulden wrote: Which way do you wanna bet, if your wrong people all over could die, if I'm wrong then the US military removes a tyrant that we should never have helped before. those are the only choices? let's brainstorm: option 3: after we remove Saddam, who is, by most accounts, holding Iraq's various factions (Sunni, Shiite, Kurdish, etc) together, these factions start fighting each other. maybe Iran seizes the opportunity to grab a little land wile Iraq is disorganized. maybe Turkey jumps in to do a little kurdish business. i read an article last week about how Iraqis are buying guns as fast as they can (guns are legal in Iraq, B.T.W.) - not only to fight off the US invaders, but to fight off the other factions, once Saddam's ruling fist is lifted. option 4: we're there for 10 long years of urban combat. after which we pull out with our tails between our legs - someone takes a photo taken of the last group of US advisors being air-lifted off the top of the Baghdad Hilton. option 5: arabs all over see this as a war against Islam. suddenly, al-Q can't print up membership cards fast enough. there are so many ways this can go wrong, and very few ways it can go right. -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Chris Austin

pankajdaga wrote: It is amazing that most Americans expect their allies to wag their tails to everything they deem is correct. Actually most Americans don't. It is just a few loud idiots that are acting this way. The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.

Doug Goulden

Chris Losinger wrote: what's wrong with this? empire building doesn't work - history is full of examples. I agree empire building doesn't work, but I don't see the US trying to build one. We kicked the Taliban out of power in Afghanistan and now the UN and the US are building schools and supporting what is probably( by Arab standards) a fair and liberal government. We stood nothing to gain monetarily there. As far as Iraq, we aren't going to go occupy the country and turn it into the 51st state or some kind of client state. That was Chiraq's country that was doing that back in the 50's and 60's with their colonialism. The US will end up fighting the die hards in Baghdad probably for quite some time, but I would be suprised if Joe Blow in the streets wouldn't be thrilled to see SH gone along with his sons and their henchmen. As far as the problems with the Kurds and other groups, yeah that is going to be tough. Just like Yugoslavia when Tito died, a tyrant who oppresses his people so they have to worry about him is great in the hort term, maybe thats why France want him there. But isn't that the Arabs big problem with the US, we support tinpot dictators who are convenient for us, like the Shah. The US will end up a lot better off than most people think when this is done. I honestly think that when the 82 airborne rolls into Baghdad they are going to face the same kind of problems they did in 91, what to do with the conventional army troop who are surrendering. It will probably be jut a matter of time before the population ees that the US is taking pains not to harm innocents and start pointing out the people in their midst with Al Quada and Republican Guard ties. There are a lot of assumptions there but the alternative i to cross out fingers and hope that SH and his group don't decide that they have the reason they need to attack us either directly or through intermediaries. What is going to be really interesting is what the Iraqi people and the rest of the world are going to have to say when the war is over and the French and German involvement with Hussein during the arms embargo is exposed. I honestly think that is why both governments are so opposed to the US effort to finally deal with SH. Before Bush put 255,000 troops around Iraq and forced the inspections to resume, France was all for lifting the embargo because they believed that SH wasn't threat and wasn't armed. Makes yah wonder what Chiraq and the French have to worry about us finding out about..... Uptight

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

So you're telling me you base your political views on nationalist jokes? Get a life :mad: Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Doug Goulden

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: So you're telling me you base your political views on nationalist jokes Not even close, I read these things called books, and listen to both sides any topic, which generally is more than what most liberals do. Don't let Uptight or the Republican part fool you, I try to see where others are coming from and what there motivations are. I by no means have all the answers, which is again more than you can say about most liberals;P. And as far as nationalist jokes, when was the last time you defended an American? I would be more than a little suprised if 2 or 3 months from now Chirac and his government aren't wiping egg off their faces when their involvement with Iraq over the last 12 years is exposed. Lets wait and see Eh? BTW. I am of French descent :-O but so far no one has tried to kick me outta the country Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: It will probably be jut a matter of time before the population ees that the US is taking pains not to harm innocents and start pointing out the people in their midst with Al Quada and Republican Guard ties. for everyone's sake, i hope you're right. and i hope the new Iraqi democracy stands as a shining beacon in the mid-east (even though the self-determined democracy in Qatar hasn't made any other mid-east country follow suit) and the citizens of all the other mid-east countries see this (tho they get CNN over there and can see democracies from around the world 24/7, in addition to Qatar) then they stand up and overthrow their governments and install wonderful democracies. but, what does democracy have to do with calming anti-american terrorism? nothing, that's what. -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Sorry Doug, but the post you started this thread with was not poking fun at stereotypes - it was pandering to nationalism, and in the current climate that's a really dumb idea. I thought better of you than that. Had I posted the converse, you and others would have been quite within your rights to jump on me. But I didn't, did I? If you read back over my posts you'll see that while I don't trust the current US government I'm not anti-American. There may be parts of your culture or politics I find distasteful, but that's another thing. You should know me better than that by now. FYI: I don't agree with the French government either. They're playing politics with the situation. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: That was Chiraq's country that was doing that back in the 50's and 60's with their colonialism Just a precision, this part of the middle east was under the influence of the British Empire, not France (sykes-picot agreement), and UK is the one who created artificial borders for an artificial country in 1922. Doug Goulden wrote: the French and German involvement with Hussein during the arms embargo is exposed. Prove it. Or I can say Bush has f*cked a donkey in the backyard of the white house :-D The sad thing is you don't even know the real position of the germano-franco-russian triplet, just repeating the pro-war propaganda and continial deformation of the facts, another way of lying. Using France as a scape-goat is an easy way to avoid to answer to the questions it raises. Moreover, it hides to a part of the american public that it's the opinion of the rest of the World, not only France. The strange thing is you're attacking us (and insulting us btw) as a collectivity, when in France the critics are against Bush, not America. The current US administration has made considerable damages to the World stability in 1 year. The intransigent attitude of your foreign policy put at stake international organizations as the UN, NATO and the European Union, creating severe crisises. Several countries will also face deep troubles because of the shift between their governmental pro-US positions and the will of the people. These countries were potential allies and they become collateral damages. And the war is not even started yet.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: That was Chiraq's country that was doing that back in the 50's and 60's with their colonialism Just a precision, this part of the middle east was under the influence of the British Empire, not France (sykes-picot agreement), and UK is the one who created artificial borders for an artificial country in 1922. Doug Goulden wrote: the French and German involvement with Hussein during the arms embargo is exposed. Prove it. Or I can say Bush has f*cked a donkey in the backyard of the white house :-D The sad thing is you don't even know the real position of the germano-franco-russian triplet, just repeating the pro-war propaganda and continual deformation of the facts, another way of lying. Using France as a scape-goat is an easy way to avoid to answer to the questions it raises. Moreover, it hides to a part of the american public that it's the opinion of the rest of the World, not only France. The strange thing is you're attacking us (and insulting us btw) as a collectivity, when in France the critics are against Bush, not America. The current US administration has made considerable damages to the World stability in 1 year. The intransigent attitude of your foreign policy put at stake international organizations as the UN, NATO and the European Union, creating severe crisises. Several countries will also face deep troubles because of the shift between their governmental pro-US positions and the will of the people. These countries were potential allies and they become collateral damages. And the war is not even started yet :|

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: generally is more than what most liberals do how true! a conservative would never make sweeping judgements. no, a conservative takes the time to research the issues and present balanced views that accurately represent the situation so that parties can evaluate the evidence for themselves. a conservative would never dismiss more than half of the country they love so much out of hand, simply because they thought that a "liberal" couldn't have anything valuable to say. no, conservatives are pure knowledge. for instance, Anne Coulter is an honest and factual source of pure information; as is Rush Limbaugh. neither of them would ever leave of 3/4 of a story in order to make some kind of irrelevant political point. no, it's those "liberals" who resort to half-truths, lies and slander. ;) -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Doug Goulden

Chris Losinger wrote: but, what does democracy have to do with calming anti-american terrorism? nothing, that's what. Democracy? That has nothing to do with calming terrorism you're right, but if you help to remove peoples reasons for fear and actually give them a voice, maybe eventually they see there is an alternative to the radicalism that they currently have. Honestly what alternative do the people in Saudi Arabia, or Iraq or most of those countries have, they (the poorest, most downtrodden) don't have access to a cable TV. Instead they probably see their miserable lot in life and the only way out is through a Maddrasa or following some radical group. The governments in that region use that to their advantage blaming the problems of their people on the US or Israel or whomever to dtract from the real problems. The Palestinian people wouldn't be blowing themselves up if they had some kind of a fair and stable government with some sort of hope for a future. If SH is removed and some sort of stable government that the poorest people have a voice in, THAT will help to deter terrorism. The US has to be seen as not supporting the people who oppress them. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Doug Goulden

If you knew my friends and the people I associate with, you would know that the American people (in the Midwest) have had a low opinion of the French people for a long time. The French ,by and large ,have a reputation for being rude and from most of the information that I have seen, that seems to be a reasonably fair comment. However, I would also go as far to say that I would not judge any one person until I have spoken to them as an individual. You can't judge any one person by their race, country, or any other one thing.:rose: The reason I posted the original comment was because I found the website humorous, not because of any deep seated hatred for anyone. I do think that the French government is very two faced. And as far as the American government being distasteful, well in about 2 years we are scheduled to have a bloodless, coup that could remove them from power. Isn't democracy great. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: Instead they probably see their miserable lot in life and the only way out is through a Maddrasa or following some radical group. interesting topic, this. actually, recent studies show that most terrorists (not just arab, BTW) come from middle/upper class families, have university education and are generally intelligent and well-off. they aren't poor with nothing left to live for. (could be that dumb people don't make good terrorists?). tough to draw conclusions here, other than: 1. we really don't know what causes terrorists - besides having something to rebel against. 2. invading Iraq isn't going to stop any terrorists, since few of them come from Iraq (from what we know). so, maybe we can look to a short-to-medium term time of increased terrorism. maybe in the long term things will slow down, but maybe they would do that without an Iraq invasion. we'll never know. Doug Goulden wrote: The Palestinian people wouldn't be blowing themselves up if they had some kind of a fair and stable government with some sort of hope for a future too bad we'll never know while GWB is in control. he seems totally uninterested in the problem. -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: Just a precision, this part of the middle east was under the influence of the British Empire, not France (sykes-picot agreement), and UK is the one who created artificial borders for an artificial country in 1922 Didn't mean to imply that France had colonized the Arab world, if memory serves they were colonizing Africa. KaЯl wrote: Prove it. Or I can say Bush has f*cked a donkey in the backyard of the white house For all I know you are saying that already, but your wrong it was Bill Clinton ;P KaЯl wrote: The current US administration has made considerable damages to the World stability in 1 year Yeah by kicking the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and bombing the WTC right? KaЯl wrote: The intransigent attitude of your foreign policy put at stake international organizations as the UN, NATO and the European Union, creating severe crisises Like deciding back in the 90's to get involved in Kosovo while the Security Council said no? If the UN can't even enforce the need to inspect Iraq and to have someone follow its resolutions, without the 255,000 American troops showing up, then isn't it just a paper tiger anyway? Unfortunately, although the idea of enforcing a common international law is good, it isn't going to work if there is no way or will to enforce it. France and Russia are placing their financial gain above the law the UN is supposed to represent, so who is really causing the problem. As far as the world being against the US going to war, I think you have to put that in perspective. People don't look forward to war and they don't protest for one. I don't look at the idea of war with Iraq as being a good thing, just at this point a necesity. If Saddaam wanted to go ahead and destroy all of his weapons and retire to Cuba that would be fine with me, but its not going to happen. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Well all I can say is that the people I've met from outside the UK - be they French, German, Danish, Croatian, American, Canadian, Lebanese, Swedish or Australian (to name but a few) have all been the same - well informed, friendly and open to discussion. None of them would base a view of anyone on a national stereotype, and neither would I. I'll say it again. In the current climate, a post like that which started this thread is ill-advised at best. It's damn obvious what's going to happen. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Doug Goulden

Chris Losinger wrote: for instance, Anne Coulter is an honest and factual source of pure information; as is Rush Limbaugh. neither of them would ever leave of 3/4 of a story in order to make some kind of irrelevant political point. no, it's those "liberals" who resort to half-truths, lies and slander Hey don't ask me to defend these folks ;P, I'm just defending myself, I do try to be impartial. But you gotta wonder about people who would agree with Richard Gere Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Doug Goulden

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: I'll say it again. In the current climate, a post like that which started this thread is ill-advised at best. It's damn obvious what's going to happen. No offense intended at all, so I will apologize ahead of time, but why be political correct about it? I'm not advocating nuking Paris... Didn't even joke about it. But I think its fair to say that this ( the impending war) is something that is on peoples minds. And again being here in the States, people do feel betrayed by the French viewpoint. Most of us do see them as being condescending and self serving. So why not poke a little bit of fun at them? We came to their aid in WW1 and after they shafted the German's in the Treaty of Versaice, we got their country back for them. The US payed a high price to help them. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Doug Goulden wrote: No offense intended at all I'm glad, I really am. I really didn't want to have to jumnp on you! Doug Goulden wrote: And again being here in the States, people do feel betrayed by the French viewpoint. Most of us do see them as being condescending and self serving The problem is you - like everybody else - only sees a bit of the picture. You wouldn't believe how many people are upset at your own government's apparent intransigence - arguably the US administration's insistance on going it alone at the outset pre-empted a lot of the political opposition. Doug Goulden wrote: So why not poke a little bit of fun at them? We came to their aid in WW1 and after they shafted the German's in the Treaty of Versaice, we got their country back for them. The US payed a high price to help them. We haven't forgotten hun. However, the Europe of today is a long, long way from the Europe of then, and the people of europe are pretty solidly against a non-UN backed intervention. Their governments (with the exception of the UK, which is getting into bigger and bigger trouble over this) reflect that. To me, it seems the intransigence of the US government has made the whole thing far, far worse. GWB may be many things, but an ambassador for your country I'm afraid he's not. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Mike Gaskey

Brit wrote: freedom kissing Watching FoxNews, are we? Mike