Our wonderful French Allies

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: That was Chiraq's country that was doing that back in the 50's and 60's with their colonialism Just a precision, this part of the middle east was under the influence of the British Empire, not France (sykes-picot agreement), and UK is the one who created artificial borders for an artificial country in 1922. Doug Goulden wrote: the French and German involvement with Hussein during the arms embargo is exposed. Prove it. Or I can say Bush has f*cked a donkey in the backyard of the white house :-D The sad thing is you don't even know the real position of the germano-franco-russian triplet, just repeating the pro-war propaganda and continual deformation of the facts, another way of lying. Using France as a scape-goat is an easy way to avoid to answer to the questions it raises. Moreover, it hides to a part of the american public that it's the opinion of the rest of the World, not only France. The strange thing is you're attacking us (and insulting us btw) as a collectivity, when in France the critics are against Bush, not America. The current US administration has made considerable damages to the World stability in 1 year. The intransigent attitude of your foreign policy put at stake international organizations as the UN, NATO and the European Union, creating severe crisises. Several countries will also face deep troubles because of the shift between their governmental pro-US positions and the will of the people. These countries were potential allies and they become collateral damages. And the war is not even started yet :|

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: generally is more than what most liberals do how true! a conservative would never make sweeping judgements. no, a conservative takes the time to research the issues and present balanced views that accurately represent the situation so that parties can evaluate the evidence for themselves. a conservative would never dismiss more than half of the country they love so much out of hand, simply because they thought that a "liberal" couldn't have anything valuable to say. no, conservatives are pure knowledge. for instance, Anne Coulter is an honest and factual source of pure information; as is Rush Limbaugh. neither of them would ever leave of 3/4 of a story in order to make some kind of irrelevant political point. no, it's those "liberals" who resort to half-truths, lies and slander. ;) -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Doug Goulden

Chris Losinger wrote: but, what does democracy have to do with calming anti-american terrorism? nothing, that's what. Democracy? That has nothing to do with calming terrorism you're right, but if you help to remove peoples reasons for fear and actually give them a voice, maybe eventually they see there is an alternative to the radicalism that they currently have. Honestly what alternative do the people in Saudi Arabia, or Iraq or most of those countries have, they (the poorest, most downtrodden) don't have access to a cable TV. Instead they probably see their miserable lot in life and the only way out is through a Maddrasa or following some radical group. The governments in that region use that to their advantage blaming the problems of their people on the US or Israel or whomever to dtract from the real problems. The Palestinian people wouldn't be blowing themselves up if they had some kind of a fair and stable government with some sort of hope for a future. If SH is removed and some sort of stable government that the poorest people have a voice in, THAT will help to deter terrorism. The US has to be seen as not supporting the people who oppress them. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Doug Goulden

If you knew my friends and the people I associate with, you would know that the American people (in the Midwest) have had a low opinion of the French people for a long time. The French ,by and large ,have a reputation for being rude and from most of the information that I have seen, that seems to be a reasonably fair comment. However, I would also go as far to say that I would not judge any one person until I have spoken to them as an individual. You can't judge any one person by their race, country, or any other one thing.:rose: The reason I posted the original comment was because I found the website humorous, not because of any deep seated hatred for anyone. I do think that the French government is very two faced. And as far as the American government being distasteful, well in about 2 years we are scheduled to have a bloodless, coup that could remove them from power. Isn't democracy great. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Chris Losinger

Doug Goulden wrote: Instead they probably see their miserable lot in life and the only way out is through a Maddrasa or following some radical group. interesting topic, this. actually, recent studies show that most terrorists (not just arab, BTW) come from middle/upper class families, have university education and are generally intelligent and well-off. they aren't poor with nothing left to live for. (could be that dumb people don't make good terrorists?). tough to draw conclusions here, other than: 1. we really don't know what causes terrorists - besides having something to rebel against. 2. invading Iraq isn't going to stop any terrorists, since few of them come from Iraq (from what we know). so, maybe we can look to a short-to-medium term time of increased terrorism. maybe in the long term things will slow down, but maybe they would do that without an Iraq invasion. we'll never know. Doug Goulden wrote: The Palestinian people wouldn't be blowing themselves up if they had some kind of a fair and stable government with some sort of hope for a future too bad we'll never know while GWB is in control. he seems totally uninterested in the problem. -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Bobber!

Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: Just a precision, this part of the middle east was under the influence of the British Empire, not France (sykes-picot agreement), and UK is the one who created artificial borders for an artificial country in 1922 Didn't mean to imply that France had colonized the Arab world, if memory serves they were colonizing Africa. KaЯl wrote: Prove it. Or I can say Bush has f*cked a donkey in the backyard of the white house For all I know you are saying that already, but your wrong it was Bill Clinton ;P KaЯl wrote: The current US administration has made considerable damages to the World stability in 1 year Yeah by kicking the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and bombing the WTC right? KaЯl wrote: The intransigent attitude of your foreign policy put at stake international organizations as the UN, NATO and the European Union, creating severe crisises Like deciding back in the 90's to get involved in Kosovo while the Security Council said no? If the UN can't even enforce the need to inspect Iraq and to have someone follow its resolutions, without the 255,000 American troops showing up, then isn't it just a paper tiger anyway? Unfortunately, although the idea of enforcing a common international law is good, it isn't going to work if there is no way or will to enforce it. France and Russia are placing their financial gain above the law the UN is supposed to represent, so who is really causing the problem. As far as the world being against the US going to war, I think you have to put that in perspective. People don't look forward to war and they don't protest for one. I don't look at the idea of war with Iraq as being a good thing, just at this point a necesity. If Saddaam wanted to go ahead and destroy all of his weapons and retire to Cuba that would be fine with me, but its not going to happen. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Well all I can say is that the people I've met from outside the UK - be they French, German, Danish, Croatian, American, Canadian, Lebanese, Swedish or Australian (to name but a few) have all been the same - well informed, friendly and open to discussion. None of them would base a view of anyone on a national stereotype, and neither would I. I'll say it again. In the current climate, a post like that which started this thread is ill-advised at best. It's damn obvious what's going to happen. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Doug Goulden

Chris Losinger wrote: for instance, Anne Coulter is an honest and factual source of pure information; as is Rush Limbaugh. neither of them would ever leave of 3/4 of a story in order to make some kind of irrelevant political point. no, it's those "liberals" who resort to half-truths, lies and slander Hey don't ask me to defend these folks ;P, I'm just defending myself, I do try to be impartial. But you gotta wonder about people who would agree with Richard Gere Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Doug Goulden

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: I'll say it again. In the current climate, a post like that which started this thread is ill-advised at best. It's damn obvious what's going to happen. No offense intended at all, so I will apologize ahead of time, but why be political correct about it? I'm not advocating nuking Paris... Didn't even joke about it. But I think its fair to say that this ( the impending war) is something that is on peoples minds. And again being here in the States, people do feel betrayed by the French viewpoint. Most of us do see them as being condescending and self serving. So why not poke a little bit of fun at them? We came to their aid in WW1 and after they shafted the German's in the Treaty of Versaice, we got their country back for them. The US payed a high price to help them. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Doug Goulden wrote: No offense intended at all I'm glad, I really am. I really didn't want to have to jumnp on you! Doug Goulden wrote: And again being here in the States, people do feel betrayed by the French viewpoint. Most of us do see them as being condescending and self serving The problem is you - like everybody else - only sees a bit of the picture. You wouldn't believe how many people are upset at your own government's apparent intransigence - arguably the US administration's insistance on going it alone at the outset pre-empted a lot of the political opposition. Doug Goulden wrote: So why not poke a little bit of fun at them? We came to their aid in WW1 and after they shafted the German's in the Treaty of Versaice, we got their country back for them. The US payed a high price to help them. We haven't forgotten hun. However, the Europe of today is a long, long way from the Europe of then, and the people of europe are pretty solidly against a non-UN backed intervention. Their governments (with the exception of the UK, which is getting into bigger and bigger trouble over this) reflect that. To me, it seems the intransigence of the US government has made the whole thing far, far worse. GWB may be many things, but an ambassador for your country I'm afraid he's not. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Mike Gaskey

Brit wrote: freedom kissing Watching FoxNews, are we? Mike

Brit

Mike Gaskey wrote: Watching FoxNews, are we? Uh, no. I don't have a TV. I take it that FoxNews has said something similar? ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion

Doug Goulden

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: The problem is you - like everybody else - only sees a bit of the picture And we realize that. Most of the people in the US realize that the US government isn't going to lay down all the cards in its hand and try SH in the media or the court of public opinion. Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: We haven't forgotten hun. However, the Europe of today is a long, long way from the Europe of then, and the people of europe are pretty solidly against a non-UN backed intervention. Their governments (with the exception of the UK, which is getting into bigger and bigger trouble over this) reflect that Is Europe really that different? Yeah there is the EU, and the Europe that I see turns a blind eye to what happens in front of it. That doesn't seem all that different from the late 1930' when France and England ignored the buildup of Germany. They turned a blind eye when the Germans helped Spain and didn't react until it was to late. The people in the US remember that, my Grandpa went over there. Just because the people don't think something is right, doesn't make it wrong. The "old" Europe hid their heads in the sand and tried to pretend the problem would go away. Hell so did the US, we waited until Pearl Harbor. Even the Vatican tried to whitewash the extermination of the Jews at the time pretending it wasn't happening. So the US gets a wakeup call on 9/11, and we find out that we aren't safe behind the defense we have relied on for 200 years. Someone can get on a jet and travel a few hours, to destroy our buildings or kill our people. So the US got a wakeup call, and found out that people in the world want to harm us. What we learned is that we can't wait to respond to what someone does, we have to prevent it. Not to be to paranoid, but can you imagine what would happen if someone managed to walk into and stay at a Las Vegas casino who had been infected on purpose with small pox? By the time somebody figured it out it would be to late. SH has worked and probably has those kind of weapons, UBL is the type of person who would be willing to do those sort of things and can you really trust SH isn't? The "new" Europe specifically Germany and France are keeping their head in the sand thinking war is bad for business. I honestly doubt they are opposed to war because of any moral principles, they just find it inconvenient. I wouldn't place to much stock in those anti war protests that you see from here in the States. Most of

Doug Goulden

Go FoxNews :-D Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

brianwelsch

I'm not saying I agree with the French, just that they every right do whatever they want. We are. I understand that had everyone put the pressure on together the way it appeared might happen in the fall, we probably would have been more successful in either our inspections or maybe even getting rid of Saddam, and war might not even be issue at this point. But that can't be undone, and at this point we don't need their help anyway. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

Doug Goulden

I can agree with that, its just a shame we can't all work together for a common cause... Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Doug Goulden wrote: And we realize that. Most of the people in the US realize that the US government isn't going to lay down all the cards in its hand and try SH in the media or the court of public opinion. I'm glad to hear it. But I'll say it again - the US Government screwed it its diplomacy royally at the outset, and got enough diplomatic backs up that it guaranteed opposition to future resolutions. Had it been handled better, maybe the outcome would have been different. BTW, why on earth didn't initially they push for a UN sponsored enforcement force to go in with the inspectors? That would have been a lot more palatable to many nations. Doug Goulden wrote: Is Europe really that different? Yeah there is the EU, and the Europe that I see turns a blind eye to what happens in front of it. That doesn't seem all that different from the late 1930' when France and England ignored the buildup of Germany. They turned a blind eye when the Germans helped Spain and didn't react until it was to late. The people in the US remember that, my Grandpa went over there. Just because the people don't think something is right, doesn't make it wrong. The "old" Europe hid their heads in the sand and tried to pretend the problem would go away. Hell so did the US, we waited until Pearl Harbor. Even the Vatican tried to whitewash the extermination of the Jews at the time pretending it wasn't happening. You have to remember that Europe's history has been blighted by war constantly up to and including WWII. As a result, there's now a very strong culture of avoiding war at almost any cost - and particularly so in Germany (I'll leave France out of it as I think there's politics at work there). In contrast (I believe) to the US, the countries of Europe now bear very, very, little relationship to those of the past. In many ways the social history of most European nations restarted after the last War, and our social and political views reflect that. The Franco-German alliance was born out of the need to avoid future conflicts at any cost. Don't underestimate the importance of the EU in this either. It's importance is likely to increase greatly in the future - it may have started out as a trade alliance, but it's become far, far more. I wouldn't be at surprised to see the EU turn into a Federation in due course. Doug Goulden wrote: So the US gets a wakeup call on 9/11, and we find out that we aren't safe behind the defense we have r

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: Didn't mean to imply that France had colonized the Arab world, if memory serves they were colonizing Africa. Before WWII, France presented itself as a muslim power. I think it may still have influence on our foreign policy because of a special relationship with some of our ex-colonies or protectorates. Doug Goulden wrote: Yeah by kicking the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and bombing the WTC right :wtf: are you mentionning WTC? Did I made the slightest allusion to 9/11? Doug Goulden wrote: For all I know you are saying that already, but your wrong it was Bill Clinton :laugh: Ok, let's negociate for a threesome ;P Doug Goulden wrote: If the UN can't even enforce the need to inspect Iraq and to have someone follow its resolutions, without the 255,000 American troops showing up Did anybody contest that? As said Chirac yesterday's, following Chrétien, the US have already won, they are reaching their goal by having a real disarmement of Iraq according to the UN inspectors. Doug Goulden wrote: France and Russia are placing their financial gain above the law the UN is supposed to represent, so who is really causing the problem * pure speculation * some could say US wage a war for oil * States have no morality, but have to use moral arguments to decide its people. Doug Goulden wrote: If Saddaam wanted to go ahead and destroy all of his weapons and retire to Cuba that would be fine with me, but its not going to happen. There are two points here: 1)the disarmement. 2)SH exile. The first point is going to be fixed by the UN inspections, enforced by the presence of the US and British armies. The second point will IMHO never happen. SH knows that if he looses the power he will probably lose his life with too. At best he could face a trial for all his crimes, but outside of Iraq he would more probably end with a bullet in the head. Removing a dictator is a good intention, but Hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 y

KaRl

IMHO you can't compare the 30's and today's situation, as you can't compare SH and Adolf (even if SH is a great admirer of Adolf). SH has been defeated once, and doesn't have successfully invaded all his neighbourgs. Who rebuilt the German Power after WW1 if it isn't US and UK, causing a big sensation of betrayal in France in those days ? This point is often avoided. And about the Versailles Treaty, isn't it correct to say that when the US representants refused to ratify it it lost the protection of the US? Doug Goulden wrote: Even the Vatican tried to whitewash the extermination of the Jews at the time pretending it wasn't happening This is an unfair and wrong lie. As said Stalin, how divisions had the Pope? Before attacking the Vatican, we should first see the behaviour of the ones who had the means. The western allies knew all about the genocides perpetrated by the Nazis, but they didn't made a move to stop them during all the war, as they didn't move during WW1 to stop the turkish genocide against the armenians. Doug Goulden wrote: SH has worked and probably has those kind of weapons, UBL is the type of person who would be willing to do those sort of things and can you really trust SH isn't? Pure speculations, once again. No proof, no evidence, as for the WMD owned by SH as for a connection between SH and UBL. You are always going back to the 9/11, and I can understand the considerable impact it had on US mentality. The US weren't used to be target of terrorists attacks as Europeans could be, and this one was the biggest ever seen. But I still don't understand how you connect this to Iraq: it's totally separate. Did ever Iraq in the past attack directly the US :confused: ? IMHO the US administration is using your feelings and anger to follow its goals. Doug Goulden wrote: 12 years is enough tim" for the inspections and diplomacy and they aren't working The inspections have had more effect about the weapons destruction than the Gulf War 1. See for example the arguments presented by Scott Ritter, a US republican who leaded the previous inpections teams Look also tho this Q&A, and tell me if they are wrong (demonstration needed :)) Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq

KaRl

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: You have to remember that Europe's history has been blighted by war constantly up to and including WWII I think I'm the first generation in France who hasn't ever known a War since the fall of the roman empire :|

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons