Is "programming" a dirty word, suddenly?
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Dan Sutton wrote:
don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas?
Wouldn't that make it an excellent description of most "programming" jobs?
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Dan Sutton wrote:
don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas?
Wouldn't that make it an excellent description of most "programming" jobs?
Not really, because it precludes the idea that the programmer has anything to do with designing the system -- it sounds more as though he's been told what to write and how to write it, and is just sitting there doing the menial task of putting it all together; in reality, the concept of "programmer" also contains the concept of "systems analyst" -- i.e. if you don't get to make decisions about how the system is designed, then you really are just a coder.
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I think it happened at the same time that programmers got lumped into IT. To me IT are the folks that maintain the networking infrastructure. Maybe did light programming (scripts, basic report queries, etc...) Programmers are the ones who use "real" languages,compilers, etc... to write "real" applications.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Agreed... which is why it's annoying when web designers think they're "programming in HTML" or some such nonsense...
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I just checked my articles and saw that I use 'developer' and it's variants, however that's because I'm not native English and I do translate from hebrew - where the word is 'developer', 'development'... I do not consider 'program' and 'programmer' to be dirty, but now that you mentioned it I will use it to check possible future employer - he do not likes me to be programmer, I will not work with him!
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Dan Sutton wrote:
More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing,
To me, I don't like the term code monkey. That's menial, like I'm brainless. Anything else I can live with.
Dan Sutton wrote:
It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
It's because the industry is a lot more blurred now in what we do. Back in the day we didn't have as many roles like QAs, BSAs, et al sticking their hand in the development pot. As the industry got more complex and more titles hopped on board, we're no longer the end all be all to development. But that shouldn't make you feel bad, it just means we also have to broaden our horizons and continue to grow with the industry. Guys like us started our work lives with a very fresh and new industry around the dot com boom. That doesn't happen too often, especially on the magnitude of something globe changing like the Internet. Dilution of one single role is what happens with any industry that starts maturing.
Jeremy Falcon
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
Dan Sutton wrote:
don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you
They sound way to classy! Let's call ourselves scriptkiddies! :)
It's an OO world.
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
} -
What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
programmer sounds like someone who is write code as a better secretary. I like more software developer, because it sounds more discovering new ways in software. I feel more and more writing code is sometimes annoying and an easy routine, but finding a concept "how to solve this problem" or GUI is really harder. :rolleyes:
Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
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dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/[^] "“Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.” If you call yourself a programmer, someone is already working on a way to get you fired. "
Interesting. It'd be fascinating to get the ages of everyone who posts: I wonder if opinions like yours come from a different generation from mine (I'm 48 - been programming since 1979): perhaps I'm just old...
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dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/[^] "“Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.” If you call yourself a programmer, someone is already working on a way to get you fired. "
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Ah, now that I can agree with. It's a shame that's where most of the money is, though... however, I've found over the years that if you want to, you can still do elegant things where business programming is concerned - of course, you'll never have an audience for it, but then again, most programmers are fairly solipsistic anyway.
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programmer sounds like someone who is write code as a better secretary. I like more software developer, because it sounds more discovering new ways in software. I feel more and more writing code is sometimes annoying and an easy routine, but finding a concept "how to solve this problem" or GUI is really harder. :rolleyes:
Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany
Funny. To me, "software developer" sounds like a soft programmer: the exact opposite impression that you have of it. You're (possibly) right about the "writing code" thing -- but it depends on why: a good programmer will say that all the work takes place in the head - the part where you actually type the program into the computer is done after the event, and is the menial bit...
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
This smells too much of marketing efforts. My guess is that this has something to do with the fact that you want a shallow description to separate the good from the bad/ugly. Meaning that the ones that cant use google or doesn't know anybody that works on code, would blurp out programmer instead of engineer or coder? I wouldn't be surprised if it was :laugh:
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This smells too much of marketing efforts. My guess is that this has something to do with the fact that you want a shallow description to separate the good from the bad/ugly. Meaning that the ones that cant use google or doesn't know anybody that works on code, would blurp out programmer instead of engineer or coder? I wouldn't be surprised if it was :laugh:
No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
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What's with the use of "coder" or "engineer" or "coding" and so on, instead of "programmer" and "programming" all over the place: to read people's articles these days is, seemingly, to observe a carefully-planned avoidance of the terms... I even read one article which said, "When you're going for a job, don't use the word 'programmer' because it puts employers off," but then again, if they're hiring programmers, then what's wrong with being a programmer? More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing, but are simply sitting on an assembly line, putting together other people's ideas? It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
I was worked with some glass lickers who thought calling themselves Software Developers was the answer. They'd explain this by saying software developers went beyond programmers by: [list of tasks you do in programming]. I'd point out that's exactly what programmers do. They'd get angry. Loop.
Play my game Gravity: Android[^], Windows Phone 7[^]
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Dan Sutton wrote:
More to the point, don't "coding" and "coder" sound menial to you - as though you have no actual idea of what you're doing,
To me, I don't like the term code monkey. That's menial, like I'm brainless. Anything else I can live with.
Dan Sutton wrote:
It seems to me that there's a type of self-denigration going on in the programming world: twenty years ago, we appeared to people as gods; now we're seemingly trying to blend in and appear to them in a form they can understand... I don't like it.
It's because the industry is a lot more blurred now in what we do. Back in the day we didn't have as many roles like QAs, BSAs, et al sticking their hand in the development pot. As the industry got more complex and more titles hopped on board, we're no longer the end all be all to development. But that shouldn't make you feel bad, it just means we also have to broaden our horizons and continue to grow with the industry. Guys like us started our work lives with a very fresh and new industry around the dot com boom. That doesn't happen too often, especially on the magnitude of something globe changing like the Internet. Dilution of one single role is what happens with any industry that starts maturing.
Jeremy Falcon
I much to prefer going by software developer or software architect since it to me gives more meaning of developing new ideas/products, or being the architect behind a software tool/process that helps my business clients move forward.
"I've seen more information on a frickin' sticky note!" - Dave Kreskowiak
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No - it's not about that. It's about the fact that, back in the days, being a "programmer" was something to be proud of - perhaps because it was a new thing to be -- there wasn't much of a history of programming in the '70s... perhaps it's just old-fashioned at this point, or ubiquitous, or something -- mind you, these days, there's a slew of shitty programmers around (just try hiring one) whereas 30 years ago, there wasn't room for shitty programmers -- the whole industry's different at this point.
Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
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I was worked with some glass lickers who thought calling themselves Software Developers was the answer. They'd explain this by saying software developers went beyond programmers by: [list of tasks you do in programming]. I'd point out that's exactly what programmers do. They'd get angry. Loop.
Play my game Gravity: Android[^], Windows Phone 7[^]
Funnny. I had a similar experience. Then I trapped them with logic, thus: "If this sentence is not untrue, then I'm right and you're wrong" -- they didn't understand that, of course, and thus the pseudo-proof failed - but at the same time, by failing, validated itself. So then I followed the advice a colleague of mine gave me years ago: "Step away, and Feel Superior!"
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Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
Well, sure... but programming's a bit more than that, really: I think (well, actually I know) that if you're deeply into it, then it becomes a mindset: it's not by accident that things like "The Tao of Programming" and thecodelesscode.com exist; programming bleeds into everything else in life, and changes you fundamentally as an individual.
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Well, I'm not that old, but the people that are educated as an engineer in a discipline other than programming, sees it as a tool to do their work and little else, and the professors I had seem to have the same idea.
I suppose, ultimately, that this either makes sense to you or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then you're not all the way there as a programmer yet: http://thecodelesscode.com/case/8[^]
