Tell me, is this a believable story (IT perspective)
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
It depends on what idiots were running the mail servers. Possible? Sure, but EVERY email on certain servers would be lost, not just hers. Even if she had a email server dedicated entirely to her (not likely at all) it's selectivity in losing certain emails is just impossible.
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Dave Kreskowiak -
I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
No, not unless the gov't upgrades their email servers faster than private businesses... And not unless they have a standard destruction policy for off sight backups (sarcasm). --- And besides, during that time, most people had very limited email inbox storage on their PC. They had auto archive features and usually, high level managers, were the most affected and most likely to use the auto archive. Lowly level people were much less likely to get the volume of email necessary to auto archive. Where I work now, things are different, I have a huge email inbox that I could never fill... but it is not on my local PC... it is on a redundant server, and that server is backed up. Think about raid redundancy plus off site backups, plus the local copy. Only the PC crashed... not the servers, not the backups, and probably the local copy could be recovered too! Think about a PC crashing... this only means windows wont boot. You can always slave a dead drive and copy the files ... I know, I've paid to recover files from a 'crashed' and dead PC. The boot sector failed and more was dieing every time I tried to read it. I had to find a guy with the right tools, it took a few attempts to find said person (geek squad and the like failed), but that guy did it for only $200. And I've always heard that you can still read a disc that is overwritten multiple times. And I hear you can build a device to read those overwrites for a few hundred dollars. I could say more, but I'll stop... just look it up. That story is totally bogus - a cover up attempt by someone that has no clue.
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
Not even remotely believable. There are federal laws that require all archiving of these matters. If she had all of her high level email on a local hard drive, she would be breaking the law. Plus no backups? Plus emails from 6 others all gone? Pure cover up....
Charlie Gilley Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
... one other suggestion I heard - get the director of IT to testify about the email set up. I doubt some tech guy is going to take a dive for this high level government trash.
Charlie Gilley Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
I don't know the details of this IRS data loss, but data can be recovered from a hard disk only up to a point. First, operating systems don't overwrite immediately: that's why you have a "Recycle bin" that can recover data. Only when the space is really needed, is the actual data overwritten. At worse, the magnetic media can be scanned by specialist equipment which can retrieve a number of dataasets, because of hysteresis in magnetic fields themselves - it isn't a simple "0/1", but a magnetic "shape" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_hysteresis[^] The previous data influences the actual magnetism applied to the disk to write the "new" data - which is why a secure disk wipe requires a number of pattern writes in order to ensure that the data is destroyed. And that means that under "normal circumstances" the last couple of disk data sets can be read back and regenerated even if they have been deleted and overwritten. (It's also why I am in the habit of physically destroying magnetic media which has held secure information) So...if the hard drive can be located, the emails can probably be retrieved, even after a disk crash.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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... one other suggestion I heard - get the director of IT to testify about the email set up. I doubt some tech guy is going to take a dive for this high level government trash.
Charlie Gilley Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
If he's paid enough, he will :doh:
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If he's paid enough, he will :doh:
he'd have to declare it as income, running the risk of an audit... oh, wait... ;)
Charlie Gilley Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
If the hard drive crash were in the last year or two, I'd expect that the data could be recovered. Since this is going back a few years, the possibility is less and less. IF the hard drive was available now, it could possibly be recovered; did the IRS have the presence of mind to save it or did they chuck it? IF the e-mail server was considered critical in regards to saving 7 years worth of data (federal law) and IF the IRS had the presence of mind to realize that and back the data up, then it may be possible to recover the e-mails. The question then is: do they back up ALL e-mail from ALL employees, contractors, vendors for 7 years? IF the IRS had adequate procedures in place to do all of these things, were procedures followed? Simply declaring something to be law does not ensure it is being followed. In terms of calling the IT director (or whatever his title is) to testify, who has a CIO/CTO/Whatever in that position that is technically savvy enough to answer those quesitons? Unless Congress is going to provide immunity to the low level employees that ACTUALLY do the work, they will never get a true understanding of the practices and policies actually followed.
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I don't know the details of this IRS data loss, but data can be recovered from a hard disk only up to a point. First, operating systems don't overwrite immediately: that's why you have a "Recycle bin" that can recover data. Only when the space is really needed, is the actual data overwritten. At worse, the magnetic media can be scanned by specialist equipment which can retrieve a number of dataasets, because of hysteresis in magnetic fields themselves - it isn't a simple "0/1", but a magnetic "shape" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_hysteresis[^] The previous data influences the actual magnetism applied to the disk to write the "new" data - which is why a secure disk wipe requires a number of pattern writes in order to ensure that the data is destroyed. And that means that under "normal circumstances" the last couple of disk data sets can be read back and regenerated even if they have been deleted and overwritten. (It's also why I am in the habit of physically destroying magnetic media which has held secure information) So...if the hard drive can be located, the emails can probably be retrieved, even after a disk crash.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
This effect was even used for Core Memories[^] in the stone age.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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This effect was even used for Core Memories[^] in the stone age.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
I know - I've hand-wired one of them before. If you want a fiddly, tedious, and annoying job I heartily recommend it. Fun when you see it working though!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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I know - I've hand-wired one of them before. If you want a fiddly, tedious, and annoying job I heartily recommend it. Fun when you see it working though!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Hobby or work?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Hobby or work?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
University. So neither, and both! :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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University. So neither, and both! :laugh:
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952) Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
Plus you had to extrapolate the results.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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I'm not really interested in the political aspect (for this discussion), although it will likely morph into that. Given the technology for the time of the "crash" (2010-2011), is it actually feasible that the emails regarding the IRS controversy are gone and can never be retrieved GIVEN the premise there was no direct action(s) taken to erase said emails? One story by Politico: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/irs-lois-lerner-emails-108044.html[^] The reason I ask is because while I'm not the most tech savvy person, I have worked many years in tech-support which involved some low-level data retrieval, remotely repairing computer software as well as physical computer repair. This was all done on personal computers and when it came down to data retrieval, it was highly likely that data was actually lost beyond the point of retrieval. The only times I wasn't able to retrieve the data personally was when a hard drive failed and it had to be shipped off and even then it was highly unlikely that the data could not be recovered. In short, I find it highly unlikely that the emails for this controversy are lost but I thought I'd see if my betters had insight into data storage for enterprise applications.
Surely they only have to ask the NSA for a copy of the emails.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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If the hard drive crash were in the last year or two, I'd expect that the data could be recovered. Since this is going back a few years, the possibility is less and less. IF the hard drive was available now, it could possibly be recovered; did the IRS have the presence of mind to save it or did they chuck it? IF the e-mail server was considered critical in regards to saving 7 years worth of data (federal law) and IF the IRS had the presence of mind to realize that and back the data up, then it may be possible to recover the e-mails. The question then is: do they back up ALL e-mail from ALL employees, contractors, vendors for 7 years? IF the IRS had adequate procedures in place to do all of these things, were procedures followed? Simply declaring something to be law does not ensure it is being followed. In terms of calling the IT director (or whatever his title is) to testify, who has a CIO/CTO/Whatever in that position that is technically savvy enough to answer those quesitons? Unless Congress is going to provide immunity to the low level employees that ACTUALLY do the work, they will never get a true understanding of the practices and policies actually followed.
The article says they only kept tape backups on the mail server for 6 months, and that after it crashed the drive was recycled. In 2010, for a slow moving bureaucratic organization, I'd expect very small server side mailboxes with users required to store most old mail locally. If they didn't setup a way to back the local mailbox file to a file server as the system default I'd be shocked if more than 1 or 2% of people outside the IT dept would have one set up (that 1 or 2% being the people who were burned by disk crashes in the past). Being told "you're not important enough to spend $Big Buck$ on a high end data recovery service when local IT failed doesn't surprise me in the least either. The paranoid will of course conclude she deliberately didn't back her mail up and dropped her laptop hard enough to break the drive to destroy it. Most of the rest of us will roll our eyes at their foil beanies. :rolleyes:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
