Self taught programmers
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Did you teach yourself English as well? ;P (Relax, just poking fun, have a beer) As for what I think your question is: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity. A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? i started programming when i was 12 or 13 - this was long before there were "programming classes" to take, in my school. then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. -c
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Before I went to Uni to get a CompSci degree, I was a completely self taught programmer. I started with BASIC then went onto some assembler. I had never done C/PASCAl or anything like that until I went to UNI. What I have found is that the assembler programming taught me the most. As you have to be responsible for everything, you have to think about the problem(s) from all angles. It has stood me in good stead to this day. So I would recommend assembly programming to really get your skills strong. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 Were you different as a kid? Did you ever say "Ooohhh, shiny red" even once? - Paul Watson 11-February-2003
thanks Roger I will keep assemply in mind but I think it is a very hard start ,tell you what I did ,although I regret it. I am an architect I learned Lotus Notes and vb6 then vb.net and some web authorings any opinions La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
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Paul Watson wrote: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? i started programming when i was 12 or 13 - this was long before there were "programming classes" to take, in my school. then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? Tut, tut Chris. They obviously did not teach you to read in that CompSci degree... ;) I said "I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity. A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better." So you are ideal in my eyes (apart from the reading skills.) :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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Paul Watson wrote: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? i started programming when i was 12 or 13 - this was long before there were "programming classes" to take, in my school. then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. -c
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Paul Watson wrote: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? i started programming when i was 12 or 13 - this was long before there were "programming classes" to take, in my school. then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. Man, 4 years of income wasted! But then, maybe getting wasted was the motivation for college... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Chris Losinger wrote: what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? Tut, tut Chris. They obviously did not teach you to read in that CompSci degree... ;) I said "I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity. A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better." So you are ideal in my eyes (apart from the reading skills.) :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: So you are ideal in my eyes (apart from the reading skills.) Er, is literacy a requirement in this biz? Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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;);)Can you be more specific I need to know what kind of books and if you have any links it will be great thank you La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
I used Object Oriented Programming in C++ by By Robert Lafore. Then got The C++ Programming Language by Bjarne Stroustrup, and for windows programming: Programming Windows by Charles Petzold and Programming windows with MFC by Jeff Prosise. But there are tons of good programming books out there. Maybe you can read some reviews on amazon? ----------------------- New and improved: kwakkelflap.com My second CP article: MAP files[^]
while (!:bob:.IsDrunk()) { :bob:.Drink( :beer: ); } -
Chris Losinger wrote: what about someone who taught themselves then went to college to make it official ? Tut, tut Chris. They obviously did not teach you to read in that CompSci degree... ;) I said "I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity. A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better." So you are ideal in my eyes (apart from the reading skills.) :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. -c
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I used Object Oriented Programming in C++ by By Robert Lafore. Then got The C++ Programming Language by Bjarne Stroustrup, and for windows programming: Programming Windows by Charles Petzold and Programming windows with MFC by Jeff Prosise. But there are tons of good programming books out there. Maybe you can read some reviews on amazon? ----------------------- New and improved: kwakkelflap.com My second CP article: MAP files[^]
while (!:bob:.IsDrunk()) { :bob:.Drink( :beer: ); } -
I heared about alot of people who are teatching them selves programming I my self tried to be on e and still trying I am now good in something and very bad in others such as the basics of programming if you are originally a programmer there seems to be some basics that you know that help you study any new tool much faster and eficient then non programmers my qyestion is to all non programmers originally how do you teach your selves the basics the background are there any resources that you can tell me about :):-D:):-D:rose: La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
I'm completely self taught. Sat at home with Borland Turbo C 1.0 going without sleep several nights in a row attempting to see how many times I could reboot my box with bogus pointers (turns out to be a very high number, in case anyone is interested). I think that formal education is a fine thing in moderation. However, my personal belief is that, regardless of whether or not you choose to go to school, if you don't have the ability to sit down with a book and learn something on your own, you'll never make it in the programming business (and you'll be miserable on top of that). Technologies change too frequently, and you don't have the luxury of going back to school every time there's something new to learn. So, buy a book, buy a compiler, and put in the hours. In this business, either you get it or you don't. If you fall into the former category, all you need is a book and some time. And of course, CP. :-) Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Paul Watson wrote: A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. Ahh ok. Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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Chris Losinger wrote: then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. Man, 4 years of income wasted! But then, maybe getting wasted was the motivation for college... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. Ahh ok. Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. your loss. -c
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. Not necessarily. In the early 90s I considered the two choices that lay before me: go wide, or go deep. I chose deep, being a C guy, then C++, then, most importantly, a VC++ 1.0 guy. I latched on to all the little technologies as they came along (okay, so who else here wasted a couple of years of their life writing ActiveX controls?), but overall what has served me well over the years is that I'm an extremely senior level VC++ guy, and enjoy the income that accompanies that status. You probably make as much as I do with your decision to go wide instead of deep. But I've still got 4 years of income on you! :-D Chris Losinger wrote: and of course: my wife. See, now that's a worthwhile benefit of a formal education! Although you don't have to have a tremendous education to get married. You only need to know two phrases: "I do" and "Yes, dear". :-) Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. your loss. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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I have to agree with you ,:((but I am now stuck in the middle and I don't know what to do La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
Samer12 wrote: I have to agree with you ,but I am now stuck in the middle and I don't know what to do So what's the problem? Buy a compiler, buy a book, skip some sleep and show a little backbone! :-D Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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I heared about alot of people who are teatching them selves programming I my self tried to be on e and still trying I am now good in something and very bad in others such as the basics of programming if you are originally a programmer there seems to be some basics that you know that help you study any new tool much faster and eficient then non programmers my qyestion is to all non programmers originally how do you teach your selves the basics the background are there any resources that you can tell me about :):-D:):-D:rose: La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
IMHO, it makes little difference. If someone is good and if they are always seeking exposure to other ideas then what holes they might have in their education will sooner or later be filled. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world. I've just finished uni, and I absolutely agree with you. I started programming when I was 13, so I taught my self programming for 5 years before I went to uni. Most of my friends from uni had no idea about programming, so they really didn't know a lot about programming anything other than hello world programs, even when they finished. I had the advantage of a lot more experience, and my lecturers often asked why my programs were so clean and efficient - I just told them it was experience. Ryan He who laughs last thinks too slowly.
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: I sense some anger/hatred here. nope. Paul Watson wrote: A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. i don't understand this. but maybe your experience biases you. but, whatever works for you... -c
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