Self taught programmers
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Paul Watson wrote: A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. Ahh ok. Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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Chris Losinger wrote: then, after i graduated high school, i went to college and got a degree in CompSci. Man, 4 years of income wasted! But then, maybe getting wasted was the motivation for college... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. Ahh ok. Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. your loss. -c
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Christopher Duncan wrote: Man, 4 years of income wasted! not at all. there's no way i would've ever run across any of the following: VAX/VMS, Solaris, *nix, Smalltalk, LISP, Icon, Occam, Fortran, Modula 2, XWindows, 2 years of calculus, 2 years of discrete math, 2 years of physics, 10 liberal arts electives, 2 years of classes in printing industry using real production presses, including the imaging theory required to go from computer or photo to ink on paper, 5 1/4s of co-op employment, a chance to hang out with hundreds of other programmers, photographers, EEs, CEs, MEs, ComputerEs, and of course: my wife. so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. Not necessarily. In the early 90s I considered the two choices that lay before me: go wide, or go deep. I chose deep, being a C guy, then C++, then, most importantly, a VC++ 1.0 guy. I latched on to all the little technologies as they came along (okay, so who else here wasted a couple of years of their life writing ActiveX controls?), but overall what has served me well over the years is that I'm an extremely senior level VC++ guy, and enjoy the income that accompanies that status. You probably make as much as I do with your decision to go wide instead of deep. But I've still got 4 years of income on you! :-D Chris Losinger wrote: and of course: my wife. See, now that's a worthwhile benefit of a formal education! Although you don't have to have a tremendous education to get married. You only need to know two phrases: "I do" and "Yes, dear". :-) Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. your loss. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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I have to agree with you ,:((but I am now stuck in the middle and I don't know what to do La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
Samer12 wrote: I have to agree with you ,but I am now stuck in the middle and I don't know what to do So what's the problem? Buy a compiler, buy a book, skip some sleep and show a little backbone! :-D Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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I heared about alot of people who are teatching them selves programming I my self tried to be on e and still trying I am now good in something and very bad in others such as the basics of programming if you are originally a programmer there seems to be some basics that you know that help you study any new tool much faster and eficient then non programmers my qyestion is to all non programmers originally how do you teach your selves the basics the background are there any resources that you can tell me about :):-D:):-D:rose: La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
IMHO, it makes little difference. If someone is good and if they are always seeking exposure to other ideas then what holes they might have in their education will sooner or later be filled. Tim Smith I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world. I've just finished uni, and I absolutely agree with you. I started programming when I was 13, so I taught my self programming for 5 years before I went to uni. Most of my friends from uni had no idea about programming, so they really didn't know a lot about programming anything other than hello world programs, even when they finished. I had the advantage of a lot more experience, and my lecturers often asked why my programs were so clean and efficient - I just told them it was experience. Ryan He who laughs last thinks too slowly.
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: I sense some anger/hatred here. nope. Paul Watson wrote: A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. i don't understand this. but maybe your experience biases you. but, whatever works for you... -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
a selfthaught person have (in most cases) a burning interest in what they are doing. while someone who went a course to learn it , might have done this because they thing its a good career move. im not saying you cant be good if you just went a course , but in most cases , atleast all i know of , the self thaught guys have always been way better than those who just took a course... //Roger
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Chris Losinger wrote: so, i could've taken a job right out of high school as a programmer and ended up as essentially a one-trick programmer. but that would've been a totally stupid thing to do. Not necessarily. In the early 90s I considered the two choices that lay before me: go wide, or go deep. I chose deep, being a C guy, then C++, then, most importantly, a VC++ 1.0 guy. I latched on to all the little technologies as they came along (okay, so who else here wasted a couple of years of their life writing ActiveX controls?), but overall what has served me well over the years is that I'm an extremely senior level VC++ guy, and enjoy the income that accompanies that status. You probably make as much as I do with your decision to go wide instead of deep. But I've still got 4 years of income on you! :-D Chris Losinger wrote: and of course: my wife. See, now that's a worthwhile benefit of a formal education! Although you don't have to have a tremendous education to get married. You only need to know two phrases: "I do" and "Yes, dear". :-) Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: your decision to go wide instead of deep are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? Christopher Duncan wrote: I do" and "Yes, dear happy wife. happy life.
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Christopher Duncan wrote: your decision to go wide instead of deep are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? Christopher Duncan wrote: I do" and "Yes, dear happy wife. happy life.
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Chris Losinger wrote: are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? :eek: Oh, my, what have I gotten myself into this time? <backs cautiously towards the nearest exit> Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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I heared about alot of people who are teatching them selves programming I my self tried to be on e and still trying I am now good in something and very bad in others such as the basics of programming if you are originally a programmer there seems to be some basics that you know that help you study any new tool much faster and eficient then non programmers my qyestion is to all non programmers originally how do you teach your selves the basics the background are there any resources that you can tell me about :):-D:):-D:rose: La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
Not really sure what basics you mean. I think what you're talking about just comes down to experience. If you're self taught, you're better at filtering through information to get the parts you need. If you've only learned by a professor feeding you in steps, then it's more difficult to get the juicy bits on your own. For me, when i take on a new language, I think about the project at hand, and make a list of things I need to learn to get it finished. File I/O, data types, screen output, whatever.... then look for a resource that covers those topics. Don't get hung up on things you can easily look up again. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
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Chris Losinger wrote: are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? :eek: Oh, my, what have I gotten myself into this time? <backs cautiously towards the nearest exit> Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
fight! fight! fight! meet me in back of the gym after school. bring your compiler! :) guess i forgot to include sufficient (any) sarcasm signifiers. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? :eek: Oh, my, what have I gotten myself into this time? <backs cautiously towards the nearest exit> Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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fight! fight! fight! meet me in back of the gym after school. bring your compiler! :) guess i forgot to include sufficient (any) sarcasm signifiers. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: fight! fight! fight! meet me in back of the gym after school. bring your compiler! Not me, man. I'm a sissy. Besides, those of us with lesser abilities tend to avoid frontal assaults, so an EMP will precede my arrival, just to be on the safe side. :-D Chris Losinger wrote: guess i forgot to include sufficient (any) sarcasm signifiers. Well, I figured better safe than sorry! I've seen what happens around here when a good thread goes bad. It's not pretty. Hmmm, come to think of it, that kinda sums up the code I've been working on lately, too... Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
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Christopher Duncan wrote: your decision to go wide instead of deep are you implying that i'm somehow less 'deep' of a C++ programmer than you are ? Christopher Duncan wrote: I do" and "Yes, dear happy wife. happy life.
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Chris Losinger wrote: happy wife. happy life. Happy life, new wife. ;P Just picking, congrats man. Jeremy Falcon Imputek
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I heared about alot of people who are teatching them selves programming I my self tried to be on e and still trying I am now good in something and very bad in others such as the basics of programming if you are originally a programmer there seems to be some basics that you know that help you study any new tool much faster and eficient then non programmers my qyestion is to all non programmers originally how do you teach your selves the basics the background are there any resources that you can tell me about :):-D:):-D:rose: La ILah Ila allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah
Being a self taught programmer requires some foundational work so that you can: 1. communicate clearly 2. listen with comprehension 3. think logically 4. think creatively Then, and only then, should you can consider teaching yourself programming. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
Being a self taught programmer requires some foundational work so that you can: 1. communicate clearly 2. listen with comprehension 3. think logically 4. think creatively Then, and only then, should you can consider teaching yourself programming. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"Marc Clifton wrote: Then, and only then, should you can consider teaching yourself programming, grasshopper ;) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security