Self taught programmers
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Chris Losinger wrote: i thought you meant a "course" like MSCE or other some kind of certificate, not 5 years at a university. Ahh ok. Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice. Ouch !!! Now let'me say that I as ex-MCSD and with 5 MCPs from C++ to SQL Server and VB,I will go definitely to the university guy !!! At least comparing with your terms ... I known too much paper MCSDs amd MCSEs that are completely dumb , to say the least ... Only contract MCSD if they have proven experience on the technology , more that a couple of years will do, less than that and without any kind of comp degree they 're worthless ... Of course a self taught programmer with some real good years of experience on the tecnology aren't to despise on , much to the contrary, let'me say only one: Christina Graus ... Let's get back to the MCSD 1 year guy, that guy is much worst that a normal guy that have a comp's degree and some solid bases to construct his reasoning . Please don't do a mistake of hiring such genre of people , I have seen too many MCSD and MCSE clowns that don't understand a thing how they perform a simple duty comparing with a university guy or a guy wit real world experience or both of course :-) It's too easy to get certified , the exams with the answers are all over the net, you can simply do a google search for MCSD braindump ... Just my €0,02 :rose: Cheers,Joao Vaz And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary.-Shog9 Remember just because a good thing comes to an end, doesn't mean that the next one can't be better.-Chris Meech
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Paul Watson wrote: Well I generally lump 5-year-varsity-degree in with the 1-year-cram-session-MCSDs when it comes to the real of world business. If I was a reasearch firm or a varsity myself then the guys with varsity degrees would obviously be the better choice. Ouch !!! Now let'me say that I as ex-MCSD and with 5 MCPs from C++ to SQL Server and VB,I will go definitely to the university guy !!! At least comparing with your terms ... I known too much paper MCSDs amd MCSEs that are completely dumb , to say the least ... Only contract MCSD if they have proven experience on the technology , more that a couple of years will do, less than that and without any kind of comp degree they 're worthless ... Of course a self taught programmer with some real good years of experience on the tecnology aren't to despise on , much to the contrary, let'me say only one: Christina Graus ... Let's get back to the MCSD 1 year guy, that guy is much worst that a normal guy that have a comp's degree and some solid bases to construct his reasoning . Please don't do a mistake of hiring such genre of people , I have seen too many MCSD and MCSE clowns that don't understand a thing how they perform a simple duty comparing with a university guy or a guy wit real world experience or both of course :-) It's too easy to get certified , the exams with the answers are all over the net, you can simply do a google search for MCSD braindump ... Just my €0,02 :rose: Cheers,Joao Vaz And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary.-Shog9 Remember just because a good thing comes to an end, doesn't mean that the next one can't be better.-Chris Meech
Joao Vaz wrote: let'me say only one: Christina Graus Ouch, dont let himsee this :) :rolleyes:
Off to
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Paul Watson wrote: I sense some anger/hatred here. nope. Paul Watson wrote: A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. i don't understand this. but maybe your experience biases you. but, whatever works for you... -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i don't understand this. but maybe your experience biases you. I don't understand either, IMHO is totally the contrary that works ... Cheers,Joao Vaz And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary.-Shog9 Remember just because a good thing comes to an end, doesn't mean that the next one can't be better.-Chris Meech
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Paul Watson wrote: So you are ideal in my eyes (apart from the reading skills.) Er, is literacy a requirement in this biz? Chistopher Duncan Author - The Career Programmer: Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World (Apress)
Christopher Duncan wrote: Er, is literacy a requirement in this biz? Na.. Anyone can be a programer prgrammer programeer coder .All ya gotta do is learn about some stuff called Sin Tax ( damn they tax everything ) and All The Go Rhythms ( Marvin Gay stuff ) and Tops Down Methods ( The 4 Tops - Smokey etc.. ). Read some of the books ( they are BIG books and no pictures so you know they gotta be good) by this furrin dude BeYorn Bootstrap and his band members Kernigan and Little Richard and learn to say OOPS a lot - also damn - and a few other words but I think this is not API related. Keep a family tree so you know all about inheritance and realtions - some good - some bad. Make sure that you can give other people your code ( this is called distribuited programming ). If you learn enough stuff like this and a bunch of initials like GUI OOP COM TCPIP you may even get to be a consultant and make the big bucks ( I hear some of them make 30 -35 bucks an hour ). Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
So, when you move to Wisconsin and start a software development business, send me an application form. OK? ;) John :D
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Samer12 wrote: I was taught english in school, but I am a bad speller No problem; quite a few people here and elsewhere who were born into the language are poor spellers. Just as with programming languages, human languages require practice. :-D It is ok for women not to like sports, so long as they nod in the right places and bring beers at the right times.
Paul Watson, on Sports - 2/10/2003If eell I ,nust draw to your atenttion to het fakt that I can splel perfrectly well - i;ts my typeying that sukcs. :-O
David Wulff
"David Wulff can't live without me, so you shouldn't either" - Paul Watson
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Did you teach yourself English as well? ;P (Relax, just poking fun, have a beer) As for what I think your question is: I would rather hire a self taught programmer than a chap who has only done his BSCE/BCOMIS and is fresh out of varsity. A chap who was self taught and then did a course is even better.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Worked for me. :-D
David Wulff
"David Wulff can't live without me, so you shouldn't either" - Paul Watson
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If eell I ,nust draw to your atenttion to het fakt that I can splel perfrectly well - i;ts my typeying that sukcs. :-O
David Wulff
"David Wulff can't live without me, so you shouldn't either" - Paul Watson
Post of the day! Thanks for the laugh David :laugh:
Paul Lyons, CCPL
Certified Code Project Lurker
What a long, strange trip it's been - Robert Hunter
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If eell I ,nust draw to your atenttion to het fakt that I can splel perfrectly well - i;ts my typeying that sukcs. :-O
David Wulff
"David Wulff can't live without me, so you shouldn't either" - Paul Watson
David Wulff wrote: - i;ts my typeying that sukcs LOL... Try using the other thumb for a while. It worked for me!:-D It is ok for women not to like sports, so long as they nod in the right places and bring beers at the right times.
Paul Watson, on Sports - 2/10/2003 -
David Wulff wrote: - i;ts my typeying that sukcs LOL... Try using the other thumb for a while. It worked for me!:-D It is ok for women not to like sports, so long as they nod in the right places and bring beers at the right times.
Paul Watson, on Sports - 2/10/2003Roger Wright wrote: Try using the other thumb for a while. It worked for me! Um.... :suss: :~
David Wulff
"I feel inclined to blow my mind, Get hung up feeding ducks with a bun. They all come out to groove about; Be nicer than fun in the sun." - Itchycoo Park (Small Faces)
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Chris Losinger wrote: your loss. I sense some anger/hatred here. My opinion is that in day to day development a varsity degreed developer has no edge over a guy with a MCSD. I also believe that a self taught developer is more useful than a chap who only got into developing through his varsity degree. A chap though who was self taught and then did a MCSD is even more useful. A chap who was self taught and did a degree, is slightly less so. In my day to day environment. If I needed chaps who were great at theory, new systems, hardware design or needed apps which did complex mathematical or scientific problems then the degreed chap would be best, and it would help more if he was self taught initially. Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Paul Watson wrote: Often guys coming out of varsity are hopeless in the real world. Ahem...I've never done any programming before i took it up in college :-O I would like to defend myself by saying how much that isn't true but sadly it is. Most of my classmates, on Graduating, still couldn't string along a few lines of decent codes. I would like to think I'm better that them..Hey, at least I know C++ in addition to VB ;P Notorious SMC
The difference between the almost-right word & the right word is a really large matter - it's the difference between the lightning bug and the Lightning Mark Twain
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please Mark Twain -
Christopher Duncan wrote: Er, is literacy a requirement in this biz? Na.. Anyone can be a programer prgrammer programeer coder .All ya gotta do is learn about some stuff called Sin Tax ( damn they tax everything ) and All The Go Rhythms ( Marvin Gay stuff ) and Tops Down Methods ( The 4 Tops - Smokey etc.. ). Read some of the books ( they are BIG books and no pictures so you know they gotta be good) by this furrin dude BeYorn Bootstrap and his band members Kernigan and Little Richard and learn to say OOPS a lot - also damn - and a few other words but I think this is not API related. Keep a family tree so you know all about inheritance and realtions - some good - some bad. Make sure that you can give other people your code ( this is called distribuited programming ). If you learn enough stuff like this and a bunch of initials like GUI OOP COM TCPIP you may even get to be a consultant and make the big bucks ( I hear some of them make 30 -35 bucks an hour ). Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: by this furrin dude BeYorn Bootstrap and his band members What a laugh!!! Thx. Matthias
You'll never master any language, except maybe VB, because there's nothing to it. (Lounge/Christian Graus)
www.mattbart.org
Sonork ID: 100.32002