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  3. Computer Architecture : is 0 really 0 ?

Computer Architecture : is 0 really 0 ?

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  • U Offline
    U Offline
    User 10929916
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

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    • U User 10929916

      in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

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      Z Offline
      ZurdoDev
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Depends on the chip. Some read -5V as 0 and +5V as 1. Some are tri-state using -5V, 0, and +5V. It's actually voltage and not current that it is using. At least the chips I worked with years ago were that way. [Edit] And yes, some chips used 0V as 0 and +5 as 1. [/Edit]

      There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

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      • U User 10929916

        in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

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        glennPattonWork3
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        As Ryan said it's all to do with the hardware, 0 or false tends to be a voltage value, it can be plus or minus depending on what is around it, due to the individual 'closeness' of conductors that are insulated from each other acting like capacitors. The actual what is 0 can be determined by looking at the data sheets. Very rarely is 0 actual 0 there tends to be an over lap due to tolerances in the components used on the board. RS232 gives a good version of this have a look at my article on serial comms it explains it. Glenn :)

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        • Z ZurdoDev

          Depends on the chip. Some read -5V as 0 and +5V as 1. Some are tri-state using -5V, 0, and +5V. It's actually voltage and not current that it is using. At least the chips I worked with years ago were that way. [Edit] And yes, some chips used 0V as 0 and +5 as 1. [/Edit]

          There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

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          Rob Philpott
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

          Regards, Rob Philpott.

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          • R Rob Philpott

            -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

            Regards, Rob Philpott.

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            Z Offline
            ZurdoDev
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Rob Philpott wrote:

            I can't see how you can have tristate binary

            That would be a feat. :-D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-state_logic[^]

            There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

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            • U User 10929916

              in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

              K Offline
              K Offline
              Keith Barrow
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              The answer is it depends. The signals sent are either RZ (Return to Zero Volts - I assume with a small error) or NRZ (Non-Return to Zero volts - a small voltage). I have no idea which the main in a typical PC bus uses, I assume RZ as it consumes less power and there is no need to detect if the signal is active. [Edit] See glenPattonPUB's reply - he knows what he's talking about.

              Alberto Brandolini:

              The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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              • R Rob Philpott

                -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                Regards, Rob Philpott.

                K Offline
                K Offline
                Keith Barrow
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Rob Philpott wrote:

                What sort of logic was this?

                In computing - Three state logic. In formal logic there is also ternary logic, in one scheme: +1: True 0: Unknown/ Indeterminate -1: False You've probably already used this without realising, nullable bit fields in SQL work along ternary logic lines.

                Alberto Brandolini:

                The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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                • K Keith Barrow

                  Rob Philpott wrote:

                  What sort of logic was this?

                  In computing - Three state logic. In formal logic there is also ternary logic, in one scheme: +1: True 0: Unknown/ Indeterminate -1: False You've probably already used this without realising, nullable bit fields in SQL work along ternary logic lines.

                  Alberto Brandolini:

                  The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

                  R Offline
                  R Offline
                  Rob Philpott
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Certainly, at a software level. But I've yet to see any sort of bus that uses three logic levels.

                  Regards, Rob Philpott.

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                  • K Keith Barrow

                    The answer is it depends. The signals sent are either RZ (Return to Zero Volts - I assume with a small error) or NRZ (Non-Return to Zero volts - a small voltage). I have no idea which the main in a typical PC bus uses, I assume RZ as it consumes less power and there is no need to detect if the signal is active. [Edit] See glenPattonPUB's reply - he knows what he's talking about.

                    Alberto Brandolini:

                    The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

                    G Offline
                    G Offline
                    glennPattonWork3
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Why, thanks kind sir!,[Yosser Mode] Gissa a job, electronics, I can do that![/Yosser Mode] :laugh:

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                    • R Rob Philpott

                      Certainly, at a software level. But I've yet to see any sort of bus that uses three logic levels.

                      Regards, Rob Philpott.

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                      G Offline
                      glennPattonWork3
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Look to FPGA's (Lattice) for that, I have worked on some Tri-State video busses (migraine guaranteed!) :(

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                      • R Rob Philpott

                        Certainly, at a software level. But I've yet to see any sort of bus that uses three logic levels.

                        Regards, Rob Philpott.

                        B Offline
                        B Offline
                        Bergholt Stuttley Johnson
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        the 205 from Kings Cross to Paddington via the Mall? [edit] to put correct bus number before I was corrected[/edit]

                        You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

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                        • U User 10929916

                          in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

                          G Offline
                          G Offline
                          Gizz
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          You can check the spec sheets for processors, generally these days they run on less than 5V, more like 3.3V or less. A range 0V through 1.5V will be treated as 0, and 1.5V to 3.3V will be treated as a 1. Docs like this [^] will help (table 3 - min high level, max low level)

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                          • U User 10929916

                            in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

                            L Offline
                            L Offline
                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Both 0 and 1 in a chip are usually represented by a voltage rather than a current, because they're made out of FETs instead of BJTs. Anyway, a closed transistor doesn't reach infinite resistance, not even the silicon oxide around it has infinite resistance, so you'll always have some non-zero voltage (and current).

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                            • R Rob Philpott

                              -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                              Regards, Rob Philpott.

                              J Offline
                              J Offline
                              Jeremy Falcon
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Rob Philpott wrote:

                              -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                              Quantum computers use tri-state binary.

                              Jeremy Falcon

                              R A 2 Replies Last reply
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                              • R Rob Philpott

                                Certainly, at a software level. But I've yet to see any sort of bus that uses three logic levels.

                                Regards, Rob Philpott.

                                J Offline
                                J Offline
                                Jeremy Falcon
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Rob Philpott wrote:

                                Certainly, at a software level. But I've yet to see any sort of bus that uses three logic levels.

                                Check out what a qubit is for quantum_computers[^]. It's the future of tech, at a really early stage though.

                                Jeremy Falcon

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                                • B Bergholt Stuttley Johnson

                                  the 205 from Kings Cross to Paddington via the Mall? [edit] to put correct bus number before I was corrected[/edit]

                                  You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.

                                  R Offline
                                  R Offline
                                  Rob Philpott
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:

                                  [edit] to put correct bus number before I was corrected[/edit]

                                  I try to avoid buses as they're always full of 'them', so have no ideas about numbers. That said, bearing in mind all you have to do is follow the Euston Road to make such a journey it surprises me that you take The Mall in on the way. Either way, I'm reasonably sure that they don't use -5v.

                                  Regards, Rob Philpott.

                                  B 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • J Jeremy Falcon

                                    Rob Philpott wrote:

                                    -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                                    Quantum computers use tri-state binary.

                                    Jeremy Falcon

                                    R Offline
                                    R Offline
                                    Rob Philpott
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #17

                                    Yeah, perhaps out of scope of the original question. Quantum computers do my head in. Witchcraft, I tell you!

                                    Regards, Rob Philpott.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • R Rob Philpott

                                      -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                                      Regards, Rob Philpott.

                                      P Offline
                                      P Offline
                                      PIEBALDconsult
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #18

                                      Chuck Norris has a three-state one-two punch.

                                      You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • R Rob Philpott

                                        -5v? I can't see how you can have tristate binary. What sort of logic was this?

                                        Regards, Rob Philpott.

                                        V Offline
                                        V Offline
                                        Vivi Chellappa
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #19

                                        There is a problem with ternary logic. "Bit" is short for "binary digit". What would you shorten "ternary digit" to? The problem is equally terminological as technical! PS. In the UK, I am aware that a tit is a kind of bird.

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                                        • U User 10929916

                                          in computers' circuits is the bit 0 really represented by no currency or it is a small signal that the computer is made to treat as 0 ? thank a lot !

                                          C Offline
                                          C Offline
                                          CPallini
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #20

                                          Usually the logical levels are represented by voltages, not currents. You may have either active-higth or active-low signals, see Logic Level at Wikipedia[^].

                                          THESE PEOPLE REALLY BOTHER ME!! How can they know what you should do without knowing what you want done?!?! -- C++ FQA Lite

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