Resistant to Change
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To be fair, I like Windows 8, I just think Metro is a waste of space - installed a start menu replacement and happily ignored it ever since. It does perform better on the same hardware, but I guess the basic functionality of an O/S isn't so important nowadays ;-) I do hope they see the light a bit on Win9 though, else I may have to consider moving my skills to another platform - while I don't mind Win8, there's not much point getting skilled on a platform that is so unpopular. I'm hoping for: * Proper support for XAML-like stuff in native desktop app's. * Removal, or at least demphasis of the New UI. ... and that's about it.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
I'm sure that if I sat down and invested a lot of time and effort (and swearing, let's not forget the swearing - there was enough of that the first time I had to work out how to shut it down...) it would be a good OS. But...it was too much of a "Metro is where you are going, like it or not" approach; too phone centric. Forcing a new UI on people isn't the best way to keep customer loyalty. Particularly when there is no obvious benefit, just a lot of frustration for "normal" users. Yes, you could quickly find apps to change it back to something like what you were used to - but then why "upgrade" at all? Normal users don't care about the things our resident MS Fanboy does: they want to open Excel, open Chrome, open email, and get on with their work. Not scream at the screen because you can't find anything or work out how to shut it down! :laugh: Hopefully, MS will learn from this - they did with XP / Vista / Win7 - but I suspect they will do it again later. :sigh:
You looking for sympathy? You'll find it in the dictionary, between sympathomimetic and sympatric (Page 1788, if it helps)
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I'm sure that if I sat down and invested a lot of time and effort (and swearing, let's not forget the swearing - there was enough of that the first time I had to work out how to shut it down...) it would be a good OS. But...it was too much of a "Metro is where you are going, like it or not" approach; too phone centric. Forcing a new UI on people isn't the best way to keep customer loyalty. Particularly when there is no obvious benefit, just a lot of frustration for "normal" users. Yes, you could quickly find apps to change it back to something like what you were used to - but then why "upgrade" at all? Normal users don't care about the things our resident MS Fanboy does: they want to open Excel, open Chrome, open email, and get on with their work. Not scream at the screen because you can't find anything or work out how to shut it down! :laugh: Hopefully, MS will learn from this - they did with XP / Vista / Win7 - but I suspect they will do it again later. :sigh:
You looking for sympathy? You'll find it in the dictionary, between sympathomimetic and sympatric (Page 1788, if it helps)
I agree absolutely - the new UI has been forced down peoples necks. I like the Metro UI on a phone. I'm pretty sure it would be OK on a tablet, but on a desktop (let alone a server) its bat-shit insane. I use my PC a lot for musical endeavours, and me and my son use it for gaming - the improved memory usage and disk performance pay for itself in these areas. For many people, I can see the upgrade doesn't make so much sense. My personal take is that it's a better O/S in spite of the GUI "improvements", not because of them.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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The UI needs hard core work, and it not the reason why 8 is amazing. A lot of people will get to see the potential of the operating system is by using Xbox One, which uses Windows RT as the core.
So the UI needs hard core work, and is not the reason 8 is amazing, but people will see the potential from XBox One because of the new UI. That makes no sense at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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That full screen start menu is sometimes annoying
That full screen start menu is sometimes annoying FTFY
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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That full screen start menu is sometimes annoying FTFY
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
The only time it is annoying is when I want it to show in the portion of the screen absent of a metro app instead of taking total control of the screen.
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So the UI needs hard core work, and is not the reason 8 is amazing, but people will see the potential from XBox One because of the new UI. That makes no sense at all.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
Did you know one of the reasons why a complier is amazing, is it's ability to grasp meaning from mistakes, and a real lousy complier is one that requires the code syntax to be prefect. So can you grasp meaning from the sentence or no?
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Did you know one of the reasons why a complier is amazing, is it's ability to grasp meaning from mistakes, and a real lousy complier is one that requires the code syntax to be prefect. So can you grasp meaning from the sentence or no?
No. But maybe that's because I'm a lousy complier. ;P
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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No. But maybe that's because I'm a lousy complier. ;P
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
The main design rule of Metro is there is no chrome. So the UI could be a game console such as Xbox, or it can be a phone such as the new windows phone 8.1 (which was Silverlight before). With enough experience it could probably mock the desktop. There is nothing to the UI of Metro so it can be anything that exists and not have a overhead presence to it.
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OK, ok; what about this. Multi monitor support; desktop no touch. Windows 7; Once a full screen game is playing on one screen nothing can happen on the other. (Many situations like this) Windows 8; With a full screen metro game (such as halo) on one screen any thing can happen on the other screen while maintaining focus to both. Civilization 5 on one screen and Hyper for Youtube on the other is a great way to waste an hour. Using a desktop app in Windows 8 breaks this ability and is why the desktop sucks. With a touch screen you can touch and control both apps at once, and with Kinect 2 - you can turn 50 inch screens into touch capabilities.
ColborneGreg wrote:
Windows 7; Once a full screen game is playing on one screen nothing can happen on the other.
True, but you can always run it in windowed mode, and actually take advantage of the additional screen(s)!
ColborneGreg wrote:
With a touch screen you can touch and control both apps at once
Nobody here argues about the virtues of W8 for touch based devices - it's all about it's uselessness for touchless desktops!
ColborneGreg wrote:
with Kinect 2 - you can turn 50 inch screens into touch capabilities
gesture-based input in general is not restricted to W8. Kinect, specifically, is restricted to the XBOX, and thus not available to Windows 8 desktop, nor Windows 8 tablets or phones. What's your point?
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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ColborneGreg wrote:
Windows 7; Once a full screen game is playing on one screen nothing can happen on the other.
True, but you can always run it in windowed mode, and actually take advantage of the additional screen(s)!
ColborneGreg wrote:
With a touch screen you can touch and control both apps at once
Nobody here argues about the virtues of W8 for touch based devices - it's all about it's uselessness for touchless desktops!
ColborneGreg wrote:
with Kinect 2 - you can turn 50 inch screens into touch capabilities
gesture-based input in general is not restricted to W8. Kinect, specifically, is restricted to the XBOX, and thus not available to Windows 8 desktop, nor Windows 8 tablets or phones. What's your point?
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Kinect 2.... 2 .... 2 I said 2 http://blog.3dsense.org/programming/programming-for-kinect-2-installing-openni-drivers-on-ubuntu-linux/[^]
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Kinect 2.... 2 .... 2 I said 2 http://blog.3dsense.org/programming/programming-for-kinect-2-installing-openni-drivers-on-ubuntu-linux/[^]
Doesn't amtter at all - it's not a part of W8, and - as the link you gracefully provided points out - available even for non-Windows system. Your point contributes nothing to the "W8 is cr@p for the desktop" argument. P.S.: Still, thanks for the link, I wasn't actually aware Kinect (whatever version) was opened to other platforms. The article even points to an earlier one discussing its use on Windows, including Win XP: http://blog.3dsense.org/programming/programovani-s-kinectem-2-instalace-ovladacu-openni-pod-windows/[^]
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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In windows 8 - you just start typing from the start menu. You can still press the start key and just start typing. There is also a swipe bar on the right; move your mouse to the top right or bottom right, then move your mouse up or down to activate the Charms bar. You can click the search charm to locate a program you want.
failure1: to "type from the start menu" you have to make it active first, hiding your application you have been working with. In W7 search, I don't have to switch to desktop, and can see the last active window I have been working with, helping to remind me what I was searching for. (and yes, that's sometimes quite helpful, when I don't exactly remember how the file is named that I'm looking for. failure 2: having a "swipe bar" on the desktop. Or even a tablet, for that matter. There's more than aenough screen estate to provide actionable UI elements for relevant system functions, e. g. on the task bar. There's no need nor reason to add a popup sidebar that just gets in the way more often than not. failure 3: Having to move your mouse to a far corner just to show a relevant function takes a lot more effort and energy than simply pressing the windows button to open the start menu. failure 4: the default search in W8 is searching for apps. That's about the least useful kind of search I can think of: when I search for something on my local system, it is a data file, 99% of the time! failure 5: W8 search will not find most data files, even if you tell it to go looking for something different than apps. W7 search finds files, applications, settings, and even emails, no problem! I've seen lots of complaints about that, and little to no solution offered besides switching to another search tool, or file search in Windows Explorer.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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failure1: to "type from the start menu" you have to make it active first, hiding your application you have been working with. In W7 search, I don't have to switch to desktop, and can see the last active window I have been working with, helping to remind me what I was searching for. (and yes, that's sometimes quite helpful, when I don't exactly remember how the file is named that I'm looking for. failure 2: having a "swipe bar" on the desktop. Or even a tablet, for that matter. There's more than aenough screen estate to provide actionable UI elements for relevant system functions, e. g. on the task bar. There's no need nor reason to add a popup sidebar that just gets in the way more often than not. failure 3: Having to move your mouse to a far corner just to show a relevant function takes a lot more effort and energy than simply pressing the windows button to open the start menu. failure 4: the default search in W8 is searching for apps. That's about the least useful kind of search I can think of: when I search for something on my local system, it is a data file, 99% of the time! failure 5: W8 search will not find most data files, even if you tell it to go looking for something different than apps. W7 search finds files, applications, settings, and even emails, no problem! I've seen lots of complaints about that, and little to no solution offered besides switching to another search tool, or file search in Windows Explorer.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Failure 1 can be avoided by using the charms bar and then the search shows on top of the desktop Short-cut Windows-Logo-Key + S Failure 2 there is no chrome is important, otherwise the Metro UI would not be able to have its own look on Windows Phone, its own look on Xbox and still function well on the Desktop while only being one code set. Failure 3 Learn the short cuts that start with the Windows-Logo-Key Failure 4 update to windows 8.1 that searches everywhere Failure 5 Update to Windows 8.1
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Doesn't amtter at all - it's not a part of W8, and - as the link you gracefully provided points out - available even for non-Windows system. Your point contributes nothing to the "W8 is cr@p for the desktop" argument. P.S.: Still, thanks for the link, I wasn't actually aware Kinect (whatever version) was opened to other platforms. The article even points to an earlier one discussing its use on Windows, including Win XP: http://blog.3dsense.org/programming/programovani-s-kinectem-2-instalace-ovladacu-openni-pod-windows/[^]
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Programming Connect for Windows http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/programming-kinect-for-windows-v2-jump-start[^]
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Failure 1 can be avoided by using the charms bar and then the search shows on top of the desktop Short-cut Windows-Logo-Key + S Failure 2 there is no chrome is important, otherwise the Metro UI would not be able to have its own look on Windows Phone, its own look on Xbox and still function well on the Desktop while only being one code set. Failure 3 Learn the short cuts that start with the Windows-Logo-Key Failure 4 update to windows 8.1 that searches everywhere Failure 5 Update to Windows 8.1
Failure 1 I was responding to:
ColborneGreg wrote:
In windows 8 - you just start typing from the start menu.
Your argument makes that point irrelevant. Failure 2 I couldn't care less about Phone or XBox. All we're discussing is desktop, which is a huge failure.
ColborneGreg wrote:
still function well on the Desktop
Define "well" - it's much worse than W7. Failure 3
ColborneGreg wrote:
Learn the short cuts
Sure, I will. But why is it considered an improvement that I need to learn more shortcuts? All this proves is that there is no benefit at all to the Charms Bar. It shouldn't be on the desktop at all! At least not on a system with keyboard and without touch interface. Failure 4 According to MS, the default is still to search only for apps in W8.1: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/search-apps-files-settings[^] Do you have better info than that? Failure 5 I won't switch to 8.1 for my own reasons that I will not discuss here. Whether it solves the issue I can't say - a quick search turned up no explicit information, although some passages I've seen imply that it's at least possible to search for images and other media files. For the sake of argument, lets assume this is fixed.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Failure 1 I was responding to:
ColborneGreg wrote:
In windows 8 - you just start typing from the start menu.
Your argument makes that point irrelevant. Failure 2 I couldn't care less about Phone or XBox. All we're discussing is desktop, which is a huge failure.
ColborneGreg wrote:
still function well on the Desktop
Define "well" - it's much worse than W7. Failure 3
ColborneGreg wrote:
Learn the short cuts
Sure, I will. But why is it considered an improvement that I need to learn more shortcuts? All this proves is that there is no benefit at all to the Charms Bar. It shouldn't be on the desktop at all! At least not on a system with keyboard and without touch interface. Failure 4 According to MS, the default is still to search only for apps in W8.1: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/search-apps-files-settings[^] Do you have better info than that? Failure 5 I won't switch to 8.1 for my own reasons that I will not discuss here. Whether it solves the issue I can't say - a quick search turned up no explicit information, although some passages I've seen imply that it's at least possible to search for images and other media files. For the sake of argument, lets assume this is fixed.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
No it proves how you want something that's it. My point is that whatever way to search it is provides an easy in your face method (not a desktop style which confuses everyone) that is easy to use. The market is not buying desktops, they are buying touch devices, they are buying Xboxes. That link says "By default, the Search charm searches the apps, files, and settings on your PC and OneDrive, plus the web" PLUS THE WEB Well when you hack an operating system it makes it impossible to update the OS to Windows 8.1. I find people that have never paid for Windows dislike Windows 8. Nedella just posted this all over the campus in a very basic poster "It would be to easy to do what we have always done, but the world does not need another operating system" Which is a direct stab at the rumors of Windows 9 - that it doesn't exist. It would be to easy to do what we have always done - is a stab that any desktop design is something to drop. Ballmer before releasing Windows 8.1 stated that from now on we are on consecutive roll outs in both Visual Studio and Windows Windows 8 is the progression to remove the desktop as the primary focus of the operating system while at the beginning standing on the history of the desktop, to not only keep the current customer base happy but to push out of that bubble and tap into the non microsofts of the world
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So... your muscle memory can't remember winKey + C? there's a keyboard shortcut for everything, except shutting down the device, that's still a pain :sigh:
click the desktop Alt-F4
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No it proves how you want something that's it. My point is that whatever way to search it is provides an easy in your face method (not a desktop style which confuses everyone) that is easy to use. The market is not buying desktops, they are buying touch devices, they are buying Xboxes. That link says "By default, the Search charm searches the apps, files, and settings on your PC and OneDrive, plus the web" PLUS THE WEB Well when you hack an operating system it makes it impossible to update the OS to Windows 8.1. I find people that have never paid for Windows dislike Windows 8. Nedella just posted this all over the campus in a very basic poster "It would be to easy to do what we have always done, but the world does not need another operating system" Which is a direct stab at the rumors of Windows 9 - that it doesn't exist. It would be to easy to do what we have always done - is a stab that any desktop design is something to drop. Ballmer before releasing Windows 8.1 stated that from now on we are on consecutive roll outs in both Visual Studio and Windows Windows 8 is the progression to remove the desktop as the primary focus of the operating system while at the beginning standing on the history of the desktop, to not only keep the current customer base happy but to push out of that bubble and tap into the non microsofts of the world
Nobody is arguing how well it works (or not) on other devices. It's a failure for desktop. That's all I'm saying. As for search, searching the web by default is also a big nono for me. It just means that not only will my actual online searches be registered and accumulated by who-knows-whom, now even my offline searches will!? No, thanks. MS has made it very clear that a whole lot of data will be routed through their servers, and the NSA has made very clear that these servers aren't safe from spying eyes, even if they're located outside the US! As a consequence, several governments have already moved away from Windows! UK is not using it, China neither, and the german government has strongly warned against it although it hasn't officially banned its use just yet. As for moving away the focus from the desktop, I'm sure this will happen, but it's way too early for that. It's certainly wise for MS to head in that direction, but they shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For now, it's the desktop users who provide the vast majority of products for the Windows ecosystem, and MS simply can't afford to alienate their most important support base: the developers.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Nobody is arguing how well it works (or not) on other devices. It's a failure for desktop. That's all I'm saying. As for search, searching the web by default is also a big nono for me. It just means that not only will my actual online searches be registered and accumulated by who-knows-whom, now even my offline searches will!? No, thanks. MS has made it very clear that a whole lot of data will be routed through their servers, and the NSA has made very clear that these servers aren't safe from spying eyes, even if they're located outside the US! As a consequence, several governments have already moved away from Windows! UK is not using it, China neither, and the german government has strongly warned against it although it hasn't officially banned its use just yet. As for moving away the focus from the desktop, I'm sure this will happen, but it's way too early for that. It's certainly wise for MS to head in that direction, but they shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. For now, it's the desktop users who provide the vast majority of products for the Windows ecosystem, and MS simply can't afford to alienate their most important support base: the developers.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Listening to developers is how Windows lost the game to Android. Listening to paranoid people is how Microsoft security becomes victim to other problems. Microsoft is dedicated to provide systems that do not store information about you, while also having a dedicated team to removing the exploits of the NSA. The Chinese government banned Windows after Microsoft refused to give them the source code. Other Countries deny the use of American products as it provides money to the American economy. As for the Windows 8 being a failure for Desktop I agreed when I first started and agreed with it as long as I didn't give windows 8 a chance, but simply put the productivity of Windows 8 on the desktop is tenfold over any other system once the user understands how to take advantage of that system.
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Listening to developers is how Windows lost the game to Android. Listening to paranoid people is how Microsoft security becomes victim to other problems. Microsoft is dedicated to provide systems that do not store information about you, while also having a dedicated team to removing the exploits of the NSA. The Chinese government banned Windows after Microsoft refused to give them the source code. Other Countries deny the use of American products as it provides money to the American economy. As for the Windows 8 being a failure for Desktop I agreed when I first started and agreed with it as long as I didn't give windows 8 a chance, but simply put the productivity of Windows 8 on the desktop is tenfold over any other system once the user understands how to take advantage of that system.
ColborneGreg wrote:
Listening to developers
I'm not talking about listening to developers, but about providing a sensible production environment to developers.
ColborneGreg wrote:
is how Windows lost the game to Android.
Wow. Just wow. Please stick to the facts.
ColborneGreg wrote:
Microsoft is dedicated to provide systems that do not store information about you, while also having a dedicated team to removing the exploits of the NSA.
Thats their official statement, and I'm even inclined to believe them, but it won't help if the US court decides against them. The US court has shown remarkably consistency in its utterly insane decisions regarding privacy and software in general, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on that one.
ColborneGreg wrote:
Other Countries deny the use of American products as it provides money to the American economy.
BS. UK and Germany are both allies, and keen on strong economical relations. If anything, they've been using Windows before in spite of the cost. In China, MS sells Windows for next to nothing, just to ensure there's a solid user base for Office and other products which are the real cash cows.
ColborneGreg wrote:
the productivity of Windows 8 on the desktop is tenfold over any other system
BS. The vast majority of developers oppose that statement, and even official MS sources admitted to most of the failures I'v pointed out before. Just look at the W9 preview.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
