Stackoverflow website sucks because of its moderators and Top Users

[Lost User]

I think for a legitimate site like CP there has to be a question of whether offering advice on bypassing office IT policies crosses any legal boundaries (it certainly appears - at least to me - to have some ethical question marks hanging over it). At the end of that day I can see from my own usage (and this is entirely based on a survey of one user :)) that I use CP for finding useful articles and SO for useful Q&A's. I don't know what other users experiences are though, but I'm of the opinion (and yes, we're back to my famous survey) that I'm not a complete oddball. Looking to the future, I guess CP can either continue the status quo, drop Q&A or improve Q&A. It's not just my call though (nobody died to make me God, it just happened on merit :laugh:), it's up to everyone here at the end of the day. We all contribute to make this site what it is, and what it will be.

[9082365]

Did anybody mention Hitler yet? This is all very silly. There seems to be some weird sense of entitlement requiring SO to be all things to all people. But out in the real world it has every right to be as nasty, exclusive, cliquey and arrogant as it wants. That's the nature of a free 'market'. It doesn't owe any of us anything. If it's not to your taste then use one of the many alternatives. Life is way too short to be demanding membership of a club which clearly does not either want or need you as a member!

[Dan Neely]

I've got to agree with you; if you ask an intelligent question you'll get a reasonable answer. If you post "Gimmie Teh Codez!!! Its Urgentz!!!" on SO; it will get quickly deleted. On CP it gets linked to on the Lounge for widespread mockery. I suspect obliterating the torrent of crap and only keeping the good content has something to do with that fact that when I Google for how to fix a problem I almost always find multiple hits from SO; I don't think I've *ever* seen QA show up in Google.

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt

[Maarten1977]

Oh my, such negativity towards SO. I've been a long time user of the site myself, and while I am not saying it is perfect, most answers I see do try to help the person asking the question by answering the question as best as possible. It is true that a question that to be exactly that (a specific question) and not a general 'how do I do this or that?'. Also it is appreciated that you have tried something, and are stuck (see http://whathaveyoutried.com/). And yes, I think both things are fair to ask.

[MarkRHolbrook]

Couldn't agree more! I had an old account with about 700 rep but decided to start a new identity since things were quite different for me. I setup the new account but some strange glitch happened. I could not comment or answer anything to gain that valuable rep. My ONLY option was to ask. So first I searched, I searched again, then finally I asked. I immediately went to -2 rep for asking about an issue with my account and why I could not comment and answer. I also got a private message telling me what an absolute idiot I was for posting such a question. Included was a screen shot link showing me where the comment and answer buttons were. I replied calmly including links to screen shots where I had no comment or answer links and the next day suddenly I could. Someone fixed something quietly and my rep went up a point. So I went back to the post I had been trying to answer and admittedly it was an older post but I had some new information on it. It matched my situation well and I'd found a way to work around the issue. So I added a comment with my new found ability. Valuable added information for anyone that might be in this same situation. I got 5 comments most of them saying, "Why are you posting to such an old post (1 year) that has already been answered!? -1 for that." I don't think SO gives you the ability to go below -2 so all their effort to write me and down vote me was just a waste of their time. I just didn't get it. I mean my info was additive to the solution. Dealt exactly with the problem but yet no one wanted to see/hear the answer I had. I stopped using it as another person here said, "out of anger". I won't ask a question even if I have it. I'd spend a day or two looking for another way to solve the problem than to use SO. Sure I'll search their results to help myself out, but I sure as hell won't add to their mess.

[MarkRHolbrook]

I don't think anyone here is demanding membership. I think it is a case of StackOverflow having what looks to be on the outside a great source of info with people interacting and sharing. StackOverflow makes you want to take advantage of that. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, areas we are not as knowledgeable about. StackOverflow on the outside looks like a great place to ask and share your knowledge. Kind of like a restaurant with a nice fancy sign and front entrance. But once you enter you are roughly thrown down a seat and told just exactly how you suck for even coming in the restaurant in the first place. Then after you try the food you get another dose of attitude for your attempt and a kick in the butt as you exit the place. I mean in my case when I created my account something went wrong. I was not able to comment or answer AT ALL. The ONLY THING I could do was ask a question. When I asked how to fix my account I got down voted, asked to roll back, you name it. Instead of constructive information there was more bandwidth wasted on slamming me then there was pointing me in any right direction. One guy told me I wasn't looking hard enough and he sent me a link to screen shot of topic and highlighted the answer and comment links and rudely said, if you'd read you'd see these and figure it out. I calmly went to the same question and took a screen shot of my screen in 3 different browsers both on Win and Mac and sent it back to him with the caption: "Should I draw in my answer and comment links and see if the work because I don't seem to have them." About a day later, magically my rep went up a point and suddenly the answer and comment links were active. Very curious as I didn't change a thing. So I used my new found "power" to provide an additional comment(containing a different solution) a stackoverflow question that was already answered and roughly 1 year old. My rep went right back down and I was slammed for adding an answer to an "older", "Already answered" question and told I should remove my comment. Well my commenttook a very different and very useful approach from the existing accepted answer. Why the down votes and wasted bandwidth telling me how I suck when my answer adds alternatives to solving the problem!? I just don't get it.

[Nicolas Dorier]

I don't like stackoverflow, because it is more easy for people to close a question, and there is no way to reopen in when you disagree with their decision. Negativity is very high there.

[Rowdy Raider]

Part of the reason for the brutal honesty on SO has to do with eliminating bad answers. If you post an answer where your code is doing something stupid/horrible/etc you will get down voted, and I think that is appropriate. I see a lot of people on this thread who sound to me like they got their ego bruised by some 'Murican, and are not equipped to deal with it. Remember we all have ego's including you, try and stop and think if it is your own ego getting in the way of understanding why people are flaming you on SO. Calling them names solves anything? Well maybe it protects your ego? I don't answer questions on SO ever because I do not believe being involved in flame wars on a "professional" site is going to benefit my career. I have seen people get flamed even when it turned out the flamer was wrong! I have asked several questions, and never got down voted or flamed.

[9082365]

But there are restaurants not unlike that and they have a regular clientele who go precisely for that reason. Some people thrive on rough and tumble, insult and abuse. That's just human nature. You usually know what to expect from such places being forewarned by reputation. And so it is with SO. It seems churlish to complain about what you're getting if it's exactly what you'd expect. You don't throw yourself into a live volcano and then complain because it's a bit warm in there! Everybody knows (or at least should know) that there are a bunch of newbie hating jerks at SO so why get involved if you know you don't have the stomach for it? There are plenty of ways to access SO information and resources without engaging in the forum directly. And if it's forum activity you want there are any number of other sites to cater for it. It's futile to ask a site as well established as SO to change to suit you and merely a waste of breath to rant on about how many ways it doesn't meet your desires. Bang your fist on the mountain as much as you want but don't expect the mountain to give a damn.

[Matthew N Davis]

As a regular participant on the site (Matt Davis), I understand what you are referring to, but I take exception to the notion that all "the top uses" start voting down and ranting. I have never once seen Jon Skeet, for example, "rant" on SO. The same goes for Marc Gravell and most of the other truly top users. Most of the top users and many others, including myself, view SO as an opportunity to share our knowledge and experience with those that may be new or stuck on a particular problem. This covers the vast majority of my experience on the site. Still, your criticism is not without merit. There are some users that do tend to lord their experience over newer users and abuse the privileges afforded by their reputation. But these are not ordinary SO users. They represent a small, but sometimes very vocal, minority. In my experience, new users that ask a "simple" question are often asking a poor question. In many cases, the question has already been asked and answered before by other users. In these cases, the questions are closed quickly with a link to the duplicate. Other times, it is clear that the question is related to homework, which is a clear "no-no" on the site. Still other times, the question is convoluted or constructed with very poor English to the point that it is simply impossible to understand what is being asked. In both of these cases, the questions will be closed quickly, which may certainly add to the frustration of a new user but is in keeping with the policies that have been enforced for years now. For me, SO is an invaluable resource. I find that many problems I encounter have already been addressed on the site, and I flag many questions so that I can use the answers for quick reference in the future. There is no other place like it on the internet for developers. In closing, I regret that your experience with SO has been met with frustration. Despite your misgivings, I stand by my claim that the vast majority of users are there to help, not to tear down. I would encourage you to continue learning and, when possible, contribute to the learning to those coming behind you. That's how we help ensure the progression of our craft.

[Shog9 0]

Bingo. FWIW, I collected some stats a while back on how much cruft gets deleted for various reasons. One of the things that persistently irritates me about searching for problems on the 'Net is wasting time clicking through to unresolved problems - getting questions that can't be effectively answered out of circulation to make room for those that are is critical, IMHO.

You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...

[Shog9 0]

I like your restaurant analogy... I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago, and took time to visit my favorite restaurant there: Mother's. Amazing food, great prices, constantly busy, but... Not the sort of place where someone sits you down, takes your order and chats about the weather. You're expected to know what you want, ask for it, pay, and get out of the way until your food is ready to be picked up - if you screw that up, you'll be gently but firmly informed of protocol. SO aims to be the Mother's Restaurant of programming Q&A sites - open to all, providing good results fast. Anything that gets in the way of that is ruthlessly stripped away. BTW, if you ever encounter issues with your account again, just let us know[^] - I or someone else will fix it.

You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...

[MarkRHolbrook]

Member 9082365 wrote:

But there are restaurants not unlike that and they have a regular clientele who go precisely for that reason. Some people thrive on rough and tumble, insult and abuse. That's just human nature.

You are absolutely right. However (pulling the age card here :-) in my almost 60 years of life not many last. Sure some do but eventually another restaurant comes long that offers better this, better that, cheaper and right across the street etc. The only thing... usually... that keeps the first place in business is a change. As far as "reputation" I guess you are right that especially in this day and age you should search, read, get feedback on the place you wish to join before you join. However we are now in a "gotta have it yesterday" environment where sometimes the answer you need is really needed quickly or bad things could happen. It would suck to have to tell my boss. Sorry... I need to do a few hours of web research to see if I should join StackOverflow because I think they have the answer I need. I agree 100% that it is futile to expect StackOverflow and similar big sites to change and trust me I'm not looking for a path of sweet smelling roses and a gift card because I graced their website with a question or comment. I don't mind being told when I'm wrong or doing something stupid. I try hard not to do so but when you are degraded for reasons beyond your control and for attempting to offer something that might help someone someday then it really says to me that StackOverflow is already on the path of those restaurants we speak of above. They will fade over time. Probably not ever just disappear but certain they have left the door open for others to jump in and take away membership. And to make it clear I was not ASKING SO to change just for me. In fact I didn't ask them to change at all. The very existence of this thread indicates I'm not alone in my feelings and beliefs about that site. So don't get on me about trying to change SO. I wasn't I was merely (just like I was on SO) attempting to add to this thread my opinion. Pulling the old card out for the last time, I'm almost 60 and I've been programming since I was 16. One of my first jobs was punching cards. Later I moved to up run technician where I ran the cards, kept the machine alive and later due to my electronics background became a repair technician. I think part of the issue today is there is almost too much information and it is too easy

[Francois Wahl]

pandu web dev wrote:

In stackoverflow, if a new one asks a simple question, then the top users starts down voting, ranting.

Can you link us the questions on SO that happened to? I would be very interested in the questions myself.

pandu web dev wrote:

If someone don't have knowledge on particular topic or another then the regular users start insulting them.

Could you please link to the SO posts in question that demonstrate this stated behaviour? I make every effort to flag any insulting comments and posts regardless of the users reputation.

pandu web dev wrote:

They call themselves as experts.

Could you please link to any SO comments or posts where users claim to be experts or what is your statement based on?

pandu web dev wrote:

They are playing with site good reputation.

Not sure exactly what you mean by "playing with good reputation" :( I love SO and I love helping people, getting reputation for it is self rewarding, though I could start charging for my efforts a affordable daily rate if that is preferred :)

pandu web dev wrote:

Overall this website has became very funny.

I think that might not be the intend of SO. SO is not intended to be funny but a collection of useful questions with useful answers that current and future users can benefit from,...for free. If you are stuck and have tried several solutions but don't know any further ask a question on SO. All that is required is a to the point question, describing the issue, a description of what they have tried and preferably some code demonstrating the issue, if possible. Having read the SO FAQ on what question to ask and how to ask them does help in obtaining the desired results. I had to do that too before I asked my first question. Reading FAQs and manuals are part of the learning process. SO is not for users looking to obtain help without any self effort, though they do get their questions answered by users who care more about upvotes than teaching a guy how to fish! SO is not oDesk, Freelancer or anything equivalent, though we do get sometimes users ask "questions" like: "Please write me an application that does X and Y. Thank you in advance" SO is also not a social

[MarkRHolbrook]

Thank you sir! I think the key point in your reply is:

Shog9 wrote:

if you screw that up, you'll be gently but firmly informed of protocol.

Note the words "gently" and "firmly". Those are great words and yes I've been to such a place and agree you do need to learn to fit in. Most people in the world have no trouble doing that however one needs away to "learn" how to fit in. The gently and firmly are one way that happens. You go in, you screw up, you get gently and firmly told here is how you do it next time. The problem I see so often at SO is the gently is completely missing and usually the firmly consists of all the reasons you should not allowed near a keyboard, mouse and monitor. Not often do the "gently and firmly" posts do anything to point the misguided soul towards the right way to do things.

Shog9 wrote:

BTW, if you ever encounter issues with your account again, just let us know[^] - I or someone else will fix it.

Thanks for that. I believe I did send a note but never got a reply. It just magically got fixed.

[Zan Lynx]

Oh yes the "simple question." Like one I saw today (paraphrased), "I am using pthreads. Something is wrong because when my thread finishes I notify my main thread but it never gets notified." Oh yes. Like I can answer that. No, that question vaporizes in less than 2 minutes with 6 downvotes. Because it is useless.

[Jadoti]

Why not post a link to the question you asked over there and got treated so harshly for so we can point out exactly why your question got pounded. SO is a community, and they're very newbie friendly, they're just not lazy, stupid, or redundant friendly. If your question could have been answered with a simple search, you're going to get pounded. If your question could have been answered with a little research on your part, you're going to get pounded. If your question shows you haven't thought about it at all, you're going to get pounded. If your question looks to be a valid question, but you have such little concern for those you're asking help from that you can't include sample code, full error text, ample description of what you're seeing, or any other relevant details, you're going to get pounded. Thought out questions that clearly state the problem including errors, what you've tried, how to recreate (if possible), etc., generally get answered. "Experts" answering questions on SO are just like you and me, and many of them do it to help the community. While they might start out helping every random user with their "how do I double click a file" questions, they will quickly grow tired of it and degrade to "RTFM" or just not answering the question altogether. Now, as far as part 2- why you get downvoted and deleted - SO is a community. The questions they are ignoring and not going to answer for above reasons need to get cleaned up somehow. So again, post a link to your question and I'll be glad to point out why you're seeing the reaction you are.

[Rio Rico Rick]

Hey if you have the card in your deck, might as well play it, especially if it makes no sense whatsoever!

hatfok King Yiddum's Castle Pegasus Galaxy

[pandu web dev]

People have complained in meta many times that the website users are rude like here, but no use SO is continuing in the same way. Top users try to prove that whatever they are doing is right. http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/161539/rude-responses-from-the-community[^] There are many questions where they post disrespectful comments or downvote etc. It is not a new thing. Since, stackoverflow comes in top of google search results, it has a good set of QA, that doesn't mean whatever they do with new users or beginners is correct.

[Dan Neely]

Not true. Any edit to a closed question automatically adds it to the reopen queue. (On the assumption that the edit was an attempt to fix what was wrong.) You could also try leaving a moderator flag or asking why it was closed on Meta. However the Moderators aren't likely to summarily reopen it unless it was obviously closed by mistake or has ended up the subject of a close war; ditto for asking on Meta.

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt