I had to use an Apple machine in earnest for the first time in years
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] :rolleyes: where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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I give up. BTW - Your username is apropos.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] :rolleyes: where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Mike Mullikin wrote:
One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop"
I can agree with that. However, it's also very standard in graphical environments to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v for copy and paste. It's not just os specific, it's followed by many programs (which is what makes in convention). Also, reading your post made me realize something else. Using shortcuts is probably considered advanced for users. So, though it may be annoying to users, I don't think my previous argument really holds true. I think it's generally expected to find the proper uses on advanced topics if you expect to use them. Much like installing some add ons in visual studio (or compiz in linux , for instance) will nerf up all your keyboard shortcuts. It's then my responsibility, as an advanced user, to read the docs and remember accordingly. So, I think I'm retracting my argument. I don't think it's relevant here. A basic intuitive environment does, as you pointed out, mean drag and drop.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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One thing I have really learned to appreciate about windows is the context menu. If you're in a new program and don't know what you can do, right click, give me some ideas. I'm sure apples are great to use once you get familiar with them, however, I have never found them intuitive. In college, ohhh.... the late 90's I was in a computer lab programming. I saved my program to my 3.5 inch floppy drive, and I go to eject the disk... Awesome, there's a button right below (or maybe above I don't remember) the drive, so I press it. Yes, I did ignore the fact that it had the universal icon for power, and I turned the computer off. Well how the hell do you get the disk out then? After asking the lab manager, I was told I need to drag the floppy drive on the desktop to the trash...
Been there done exactly that. And of course the diskette was corrupt afterwards. Intuitive my ass! That's truth by repetition.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello[^]
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop"
Who says that ?
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
Rage wrote:
Who says that ?
Reality says that. Are you suggesting that any remotely popular OS GUI in the last 20 years doesn't support "drag and drop"?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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This must be one of the most subtle trolling I have ever seen here. You may go now, your work is done.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
Rage wrote:
This must be one of the most subtle trolling I have ever seen here.
It likely seems subtle because I'm not trolling (by any definition). However... the OP and some of the responses (yours in particular) are definitely trolling.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
My wife's school system for some reason has gone to the silver boxes. I had the opportunity recently to help her insert several pictures into a document she was creating. I couldn't find a way to get to the Word menu using the keyboard, so I had to keep moving my hands to use the track pad to perform the operation. After about 5 I said enough of this the rest will have to wait until I can get to work and ask some of my coworkers how to do this simple task on a mac. After some searching on their part, because they had never tried either, I finally have the keystrokes needed to access the menu in Word. Fn+Ctrl+F2. Just about as obvious as Ctrl+Atl+Delete.
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Apfelsaft !
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
Rage wrote:
Apfelsaft !
That is only the beginning, after myself and the yeast are done with it it'll be transformed into cidre. Cheers!
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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Apfelschorle plus apfelkorn
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Keith Barrow wrote:
Apfelschorle plus apfelkorn
Pfui! ;P :D
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
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Careful, your apple is showing.
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Yeah, a lot of times it seems like they do stuff just trying to be different.... but hey, the terminal commands should all be just about the same as any Linux (slightly different there too, but hey, at least you have
manor--help).In fact I think Apple did it first with Command-C - Ctrl-C in windows was used because they didn't have a command key! Windows used to us the insert and delete keys with sift (I think) So it's not trying to be different- it's being consistent!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
xactly the same as Windows.
I am a Total Commander user, so basically never use an explorer or any of the Windows "folder". Experience taught me that putting anything in windows folders is the best way to loose data. So spontaneously, this is certainly the last place I would have looked for that file. I found it by looking up the path in the properties, or whatever this is called on OS X.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Was it really that different that you couldn't figure it out?
Do you mean that seriously ? How on Earth should I know that there is an icon on the desktop for mass storage media, and that this is the only way to access it ??? Who goes over the desktop to access files ?
Mike Mullikin wrote:
When I connect a USB stick it shows up on the desktop AND in Finder
Well, I am so glad it worked for you, bu it did not for me. So call me dumb if you want -- because this is exactly what you are heading for -- but nothing here was intuitive to me and it took me ten damn minutes to download that file and put it on that USB stick.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
Rage wrote:
nothing here was intuitive to me
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one, and now try to use another with the expectation of it working the same - and it doesn't. Sit an experienced windows 7 user in front of Windows 8 and they are more flummoxed - nothing is intuitive about (for example) pressing Windows-C, selecting Settings (FFS) then Power, then Shut Down - but once you have used it for a while, you get used to it and it becomes second nature. Judging something inferior because it is different is racism, surely :)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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My wife's school system for some reason has gone to the silver boxes. I had the opportunity recently to help her insert several pictures into a document she was creating. I couldn't find a way to get to the Word menu using the keyboard, so I had to keep moving my hands to use the track pad to perform the operation. After about 5 I said enough of this the rest will have to wait until I can get to work and ask some of my coworkers how to do this simple task on a mac. After some searching on their part, because they had never tried either, I finally have the keystrokes needed to access the menu in Word. Fn+Ctrl+F2. Just about as obvious as Ctrl+Atl+Delete.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
They're computers. OS, Unix, Xenix, Red Hat, Windows... they all have their own ways and quirks, but they all let you use the hardware that computers are made of. My only objection to apple computers is the bullsh*t they use to overinflate their prices*. * OTOH, my objection to apples phones/tabs is that they're cr@p by comparison to the competition
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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My wife's school system for some reason has gone to the silver boxes. I had the opportunity recently to help her insert several pictures into a document she was creating. I couldn't find a way to get to the Word menu using the keyboard, so I had to keep moving my hands to use the track pad to perform the operation. After about 5 I said enough of this the rest will have to wait until I can get to work and ask some of my coworkers how to do this simple task on a mac. After some searching on their part, because they had never tried either, I finally have the keystrokes needed to access the menu in Word. Fn+Ctrl+F2. Just about as obvious as Ctrl+Atl+Delete.
That's a throwback from when adobe and apple were best pals. It's because of adobe that apple computers got the rep for being "perfect for graphics" (despite the fact that photoshop for Windows was identical), but adobe always had a thing for three- and four-finger keyboard shortcuts. I think adobe wanted all keyboard shortcuts to be global, so they couldn't bring themselves to use the same shortcut for different things in different programs.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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In fact I think Apple did it first with Command-C - Ctrl-C in windows was used because they didn't have a command key! Windows used to us the insert and delete keys with sift (I think) So it's not trying to be different- it's being consistent!
PooperPig - Coming Soon
"Windows used to use the insert and delete keys with shift (I think)" ... it always has done, and 99% of the time it's shift/delete shift/insert that I use for cut/paste. I even use it for copy (with text) by cutting and immediately pasting, then pasting where I want the copy... just find that easier than the rather awkward ctrl-c / ctrl-v combinations (getting my little finger "lower" on the keyboard than my index finger).
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
drag and drop
This assumes: 1. You know where to drag from, e.g. where the downloaded file was saved -> did not appear, had to look with that "Finder" 2. You know where to drop -> no appearance of usb as mass media in the "Finder", but as an icon on the desktop :omg: About as intuitive as cutting a tree with a bread knife.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
I see I'm dealing with a crazy person.
Is it really necessary to put it on the wrong side of the window, and making a permutation of the buttons ? X|
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus Entropy isn't what it used to.
drag + drop also assumes that both source and destination are visible at the same time. On Windows (haven't tried on a mac) the display scrolls up/down if you hover at the top or bottom, but that tends to be slow anyway. If the source/destination are in different folder structures then it can be virtually impossible to drag/drop, and the only options are using the keyboard or menus. In this situation on Windows I'll either right-click the folder or use the menu key. Have really only used Mac for cross-browser compatibilty testing so, thankfully, have never had to do it there. Which is probably just as well, since I have a Mac mini and am not shelling out a huge amount on a mac-specific keyboard I only use once in a blue moon. I have a Windows USB keyboard attached, which doesn't have a command key and the Windows key doesn't seem to work as command... Windows Explorer is getting worse and worse with age, and more and more confusing. What with Favourites, and Libraries as well as the "proper" Computer view, there are multiple routes to the same physical location. Add in shortcuts and aliases and what you see is definitely not what you've got. I've ended up moving stuff into the same folder it came from before now. Bring back File Manager! :omg:
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I'm far from being a lover of all things Apple (just ask my family or anyone that knows me), but to be fair it always takes some time to adjust to another OS. I similarly had difficulty using Apple/Mac since I've been a Windows user for so long, but that can't all be blamed on the OS. Sheep or not, Apple users similarly have a problem switching to Windows. Now on to my diatribe... My biggest criticism of Apple is that their product would be better if they spent as much time perfecting a functional and intuitive UI/UX as they did: 1. Trying to make something new and unique not because it's better, but because it is unique to them and they can tell people that it is better 2. Suing people over implementing techniques similar to those they created in #1 (even more frustrating knowing how much they've ripped off from others - I love to point out to Apple fanbois the original ipod designs from the British shoe salesman) 3. Marketing it and convincing the sheeple that their is no substitute (in some cases, copying others in the process and acting as if they were the first to bring this idea to the world - "wow, a flat design aesthetic, that's just brilliant") My biggest criticism of Windows on the UI/UX front is their desire to cram new things down people's throats (ribbons, start menus, etc.). I know Apple does it all the time, but that's their market and their users (whether they realize it or not) expect it. Nearly every flaw that can be tied back to the failure of the acceptance of Windows 8 in the marketplace was predictable - and not in a 20/20 hindsight case, it was well known from test groups and pre-launch feedback. But still they pushed ahead. Bold. And stupid. As for Apple the corporation and it's leaders - to my knowledge (and I welcome corrections if I'm wrong), Apple has contributed far less to the community than other market-leading companies. Microsoft and Google both actively pursue research and are more open than Apple - Microsoft has become significantly more open over the last decade and really hasn't received enough credit for it. And as much as I may respect Jobs as a businessman, he was ruthless (even ripping off Wozniak if the rumours are true); I sincerely hope Gates is better remembered in the future (not for his business endeavours, but for his philanthropy). Don't get me wrong - I know Gates/Microsoft, Google/Skynet, and others have some dark facts too. The rest of my dislike for Apple has more to do with the blind hypocritical followers than with Apple itself - but
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I have a MacBook Pro from my job. My favorite thing about it is BootCamp. I used that to install Windows 8 and haven't purposefully booted into osX in months. My least favorite features are related to the keyboard. 1. The alt and the "windows" keys are swapped. 2. There is no Delete key. 3. They've put the power button where the delete key should be. I deal with these issues by almost always having a full size keyboard (and monitor) plugged in. When that isn't an option (coffee shop days etc) I use the following fixes. 1. I run an AutoHotKey script to switch the alt and windows keys into the right spots 2. Curse while moving my cursor to use the backspace key or in the case of email clicking the delete button 3. Curse angrily while waiting for it to turn back on
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Rage wrote:
nothing here was intuitive to me
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one, and now try to use another with the expectation of it working the same - and it doesn't. Sit an experienced windows 7 user in front of Windows 8 and they are more flummoxed - nothing is intuitive about (for example) pressing Windows-C, selecting Settings (FFS) then Power, then Shut Down - but once you have used it for a while, you get used to it and it becomes second nature. Judging something inferior because it is different is racism, surely :)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
_Maxxx_ wrote:
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one
I think that some of the older UIs were a lot more intuitive than the new ones. Heck, if you look at some of the basic GTK based UIs, they're a whole heck of a lot more intuitive than the newer, more complex ones. One of the principles of good UI design I learned some time ago was not to hide things, even when they weren't available. That way the user knew where it was from seeing it, even if disabled. I don't think new UI's really apply some of those old principles anymore, instead they hide layers and show you what they think you want to see or should see without really considering that what you want to see is really task specific (although Linux is really doing a good job of this recently).