I had to use an Apple machine in earnest for the first time in years
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Did you read the manual?
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Did you read the manual?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
"Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl." Ironically, the Mac OS was the first commercial GUI and when they sued Microsoft for copying code in Windows one of the arguments was "look, you've even used all of our shortcut keys, c for copy, v for paste..." The reality is that Microsoft moved the command key to control because non-Mac keyboards didn't have a command key. Newer keyboards later added the alt and windows keys, but the shortcuts were already mapped to the control key at that point. "Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant." The Mac OS was designed for use with a mouse. A simple drag and drop suffices for most uses. You can hold down combinations of the command key, shift key, and option key while dragging to copy, move, or create a shortcut. "I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy." Not sure if you were in a save dialog box, Finder, or terminal, but in the Finder command (windows key) clicking the title bar will give you the folder hierarchy in a pull down menu. The save dialog box has a similar feature. I'm not near a Mac so I can't tell you exactly how, but it's there. Terminal is the same as any other *nix. Be aware though that the *nix OSes moved the dir command to ls. ;) I'm much more comfortable using Mac OS X than any other operating systems (even though I make my living in a Windows only environment), most everything feels more natural to me. I have run into the "Why can't I cut and paste a file" issue before, but most of my gripes go the other way -like if I select a bunch of files and double click on the selected group why does Windows only open one file? (or press ctrl-O while a group of files is selected for that matter) Or why can't I select the text in a Windows dialog box to paste somewhere else? (On a Mac, not only can you select the text, you can drag and drop it to the desktop to create a text clipping file)
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Had to be the interface... couldn't be your ignorance of it. :rolleyes:
It was specifically his ignorance of it that he was complaining about. There is an expected learning curve when using new systems, but some things are typically left to convention. (you learn about that in UX classes). So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here. The only time you can really get away with changing things that are considered normal by convention, are if they are are intuitive. And by intuitive I mean that you could figure it out without an explanation from a skilled user. It would be like a terminal that you couldn't get out of by typing "Exit" . (I've ran into one of these somewhere, but can't remember where. Some database terminal). It's just annoying, even if the normal users know and remember it.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
loctrice wrote:
So the complaint was that some basic things that are the same across os's are different here.
But that's really not fair since many of these conventions predate Windows...
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
Keith wrote: "Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl." Since the Mac UI was created, this has been true. Windows was not developed until Mac OS was already established. So it really was Windows that isn't following the model. Nice try, though.
___ Br.
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] :rolleyes: where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
... where no such convention exists ... IBM Common User Access[^] The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design[^]
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... where no such convention exists ... IBM Common User Access[^] The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design[^]
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"Windows used to use the insert and delete keys with shift (I think)" ... it always has done, and 99% of the time it's shift/delete shift/insert that I use for cut/paste. I even use it for copy (with text) by cutting and immediately pasting, then pasting where I want the copy... just find that easier than the rather awkward ctrl-c / ctrl-v combinations (getting my little finger "lower" on the keyboard than my index finger).
I had to use an application where the old CUA keys were the only way to defeat the Ctrl+C protection - or, more probably, bug. :-\
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Rage wrote:
nothing here was intuitive to me
Thing is, it's not intuitive on most operating systems - just that you've learned over the years how to use one, and now try to use another with the expectation of it working the same - and it doesn't. Sit an experienced windows 7 user in front of Windows 8 and they are more flummoxed - nothing is intuitive about (for example) pressing Windows-C, selecting Settings (FFS) then Power, then Shut Down - but once you have used it for a while, you get used to it and it becomes second nature. Judging something inferior because it is different is racism, surely :)
PooperPig - Coming Soon
Did you know that: - you can shut down your Windows machine by shortly pressing the power button - it is hard to buy a decent, but cheap keyboard without power keys - you can shut down your Windows machine by pressing Alt+F4 on the desktop - common user habit, closing all windows before shutdown :) but all the above is obsolete knowledge since there is more laptops at the hands of the people not living under a system administrator, and just closing the lid do the trick.
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One thing I have really learned to appreciate about windows is the context menu. If you're in a new program and don't know what you can do, right click, give me some ideas. I'm sure apples are great to use once you get familiar with them, however, I have never found them intuitive. In college, ohhh.... the late 90's I was in a computer lab programming. I saved my program to my 3.5 inch floppy drive, and I go to eject the disk... Awesome, there's a button right below (or maybe above I don't remember) the drive, so I press it. Yes, I did ignore the fact that it had the universal icon for power, and I turned the computer off. Well how the hell do you get the disk out then? After asking the lab manager, I was told I need to drag the floppy drive on the desktop to the trash...
I have left all Apple when Quick Time became the de facto video player of the early web. Seriously, a Sokol radio like volume control[^], hidden in a drawer, from the kings of the UI/UX? :omg:
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So IBM and Microsoft get to define keyboard conventions for Apple? How odd that you would believe that...
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
Ahh, I was misled by your choice of words: universally accepted ;P So focus on Apple only. Do you think Steve really left to the developers what to use?[^]
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Ahh, I was misled by your choice of words: universally accepted ;P So focus on Apple only. Do you think Steve really left to the developers what to use?[^]
Of course Apple has it's own conventions. The OP was complaining that the Windows keystrokes he was familiar with did not work on a Mac. I merely asked why he didn't use drag and drop to copy (or move) the files instead of keystrokes that could vary from one OS to the next.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Did you know that: - you can shut down your Windows machine by shortly pressing the power button - it is hard to buy a decent, but cheap keyboard without power keys - you can shut down your Windows machine by pressing Alt+F4 on the desktop - common user habit, closing all windows before shutdown :) but all the above is obsolete knowledge since there is more laptops at the hands of the people not living under a system administrator, and just closing the lid do the trick.
Peter Adam wrote:
you can shut down your Windows machine by shortly pressing the power button
Yes I did
Peter Adam wrote:
it is hard to buy a decent, but cheap keyboard without power keys
I just googled and picked two keyboards at random from those that came up - neither had power keys. Not too hard, then!
Peter Adam wrote:
you can shut down your Windows machine by pressing Alt+F4 on the desktop - common user habit, closing all windows before shutdown
Yes I knew that - though I disagree about it being a common user habit. I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion, though. Are you suggesting that it is more user-discoverable to use those methods ?
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Honest critique of flaws with Apple that are typically glossed over by the sheep will always get my up-vote.
Except if it's pure ignorance. Cmd-Option-V took 10 seconds to look up. As far as "every other OS", Mac existed before Linux even had a basic UI, and that first control panel looked very very Mac-Y...... If something's been around so long and is so quick to look up and gives you full *Nix, Sudo/Root power with a great UI and can run Linux, Windows and even Android subsystems easy with what's around plus limitless licenses of UNIX with good UI's that someone doesn't want to spend 15 seconds to learn about all the power tools like Automator, just, talk about sheep calling the kettle black.
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One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop". Yet he seemingly refused to use it in favor of keyboard shortcuts[^] :rolleyes: where no such convention exists.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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"Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl." Ironically, the Mac OS was the first commercial GUI and when they sued Microsoft for copying code in Windows one of the arguments was "look, you've even used all of our shortcut keys, c for copy, v for paste..." The reality is that Microsoft moved the command key to control because non-Mac keyboards didn't have a command key. Newer keyboards later added the alt and windows keys, but the shortcuts were already mapped to the control key at that point. "Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant." The Mac OS was designed for use with a mouse. A simple drag and drop suffices for most uses. You can hold down combinations of the command key, shift key, and option key while dragging to copy, move, or create a shortcut. "I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy." Not sure if you were in a save dialog box, Finder, or terminal, but in the Finder command (windows key) clicking the title bar will give you the folder hierarchy in a pull down menu. The save dialog box has a similar feature. I'm not near a Mac so I can't tell you exactly how, but it's there. Terminal is the same as any other *nix. Be aware though that the *nix OSes moved the dir command to ls. ;) I'm much more comfortable using Mac OS X than any other operating systems (even though I make my living in a Windows only environment), most everything feels more natural to me. I have run into the "Why can't I cut and paste a file" issue before, but most of my gripes go the other way -like if I select a bunch of files and double click on the selected group why does Windows only open one file? (or press ctrl-O while a group of files is selected for that matter) Or why can't I select the text in a Windows dialog box to paste somewhere else? (On a Mac, not only can you select the text, you can drag and drop it to the desktop to create a text clipping file)
Have you ever used Automator? It is amazing for a *Nix machine to have this level of... GUI Automation.. :) I haven't used it much but to create a Finder "service" to show/hide hidden files, but it's got all kinds of crazy options. But Command-Option-V moves, or "cuts and pastes", and in Finder Edit menu, Option changes "Paste Item" to "Move Item Here". So far most anything I've wanted I've been able to do with a lot of easier power with a Mac, but sometimes you do have to look a few things up since they're different of course. It's weird to think that Mac's different because Windows copied them with a twist back in the day...
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
On the matter of "command" (ie the 4 leaf clover thingy, or wavy windows thingy key), there is a matter of history. Early Macs did not have a control key - eg the Mac Plus, and so for programs requiring control key - eg terminal emulators - the command key was used. Only in later incarnations was a separate control key added to the Mac keyboards. Conversely, the wavy windows key was only added quite recently to PC keyboards - and ISTM its only use was to act as a "command" key when plugged into Macintoshes, or (as I discovered recently) where MS put the start menu on Windows 8.
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That is all. Actually it isn't. Want to move a folder? Ctrl-x --> correct destination --> Crtl-v. Nope, first of all you have to use "windows" key in place of ctrl, OK that's just a who moved my cheese thing, but really, every other OS I've used uses ctrl. So I used the correct keystrokes. Only windows-x doesn't cut the folder, it didn't even seem to copy properly. One of the regular mac users said it doesn't work, you have to copy, then delete, or use a mouse like a peasant. :wtf: :mad: :wtf: :mad::mad::mad: Then I tried to save a .sh file to improve the rubbish (compared to the windows (linux I would guess)) git command prompt/shell from Chrome. I can only seem to save to the equivalent of MyDocuments, or subfolders within it, no apparent way to even go up in the folder hierarchy. This might be me, but something like that should be obvious. These are just the tip of the iceberg, seriously all of the proper *NIXes I've used have had much better GUIs strapped on to them. Hell, using the terminal seems to be the easiest way to get stuff done.
Alberto Brandolini:
The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
I agree that OSX should have these things and make this easier, but you should also be aware of the following: It was the Mac that first had the Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V for cut/copy/paste, before anyone else. They're the ones that came up with those keystrokes. When Windows copied the Mac, they duplicated those, but the IBM keyboard didn't have a Cmd key, nor did it have a Windows key at the time, so Microsoft chose to standardize on the Ctrl key. The Ctrl key on the Mac was hardly used. Ctrl is key that's holdover from terminal days. When the Mac and PC, hardware and software started to become more integrated, using common keyboards and mice, VNC, RDP sessions, etc., someone chose to map the now-common win key to Mac's Cmd key. Every other key was already mapped. Only Windows keyboards had the Win key, and only Mac keyboards had the Cmd key, so it made sense to map the two. At the same time they mapped the PC's Alt key to the Mac's Option key. In my opinion, this was a mistake because of the placement of the keys on the keyboard. It's bad enough that you have to remember to use Win+C to copy on a Mac using a Windows keyboard, now you have to use the Cmd key when using a Mac keyboard with a PC when you want to hit the Win key. The Alt/Win key are swapped, which makes it difficult to use Windows on a Mac if you use both a Windows keyboard and a Mac keyboard. Someone should fix all this. I say Apple buy Microsoft.
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I agree that OSX should have these things and make this easier, but you should also be aware of the following: It was the Mac that first had the Cmd+X, Cmd+C and Cmd+V for cut/copy/paste, before anyone else. They're the ones that came up with those keystrokes. When Windows copied the Mac, they duplicated those, but the IBM keyboard didn't have a Cmd key, nor did it have a Windows key at the time, so Microsoft chose to standardize on the Ctrl key. The Ctrl key on the Mac was hardly used. Ctrl is key that's holdover from terminal days. When the Mac and PC, hardware and software started to become more integrated, using common keyboards and mice, VNC, RDP sessions, etc., someone chose to map the now-common win key to Mac's Cmd key. Every other key was already mapped. Only Windows keyboards had the Win key, and only Mac keyboards had the Cmd key, so it made sense to map the two. At the same time they mapped the PC's Alt key to the Mac's Option key. In my opinion, this was a mistake because of the placement of the keys on the keyboard. It's bad enough that you have to remember to use Win+C to copy on a Mac using a Windows keyboard, now you have to use the Cmd key when using a Mac keyboard with a PC when you want to hit the Win key. The Alt/Win key are swapped, which makes it difficult to use Windows on a Mac if you use both a Windows keyboard and a Mac keyboard. Someone should fix all this. I say Apple buy Microsoft.
And while they're at it, let's see if someone can come up with some consistent mapping of the Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys between Parallels, VMWare and Remote Desktop. It's a mess, especially when inconsistencies exist within the OSX ecosystem itself.
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
One of the most basic conventions of today's OS GUI's is "drag and drop"
I can agree with that. However, it's also very standard in graphical environments to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v for copy and paste. It's not just os specific, it's followed by many programs (which is what makes in convention). Also, reading your post made me realize something else. Using shortcuts is probably considered advanced for users. So, though it may be annoying to users, I don't think my previous argument really holds true. I think it's generally expected to find the proper uses on advanced topics if you expect to use them. Much like installing some add ons in visual studio (or compiz in linux , for instance) will nerf up all your keyboard shortcuts. It's then my responsibility, as an advanced user, to read the docs and remember accordingly. So, I think I'm retracting my argument. I don't think it's relevant here. A basic intuitive environment does, as you pointed out, mean drag and drop.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
loctrice wrote:
However, it's also very standard in graphical environments to use ctrl+c and ctrl+v for copy and paste. It's not just os specific, it's followed by many programs (which is what makes in convention).
Don't forget that this "cntrl+c, cntrl+v" of which you speak is only standard because the Windows and Unix keyboards didn't have the "command" symbol on it and so replaced the "original" command+ short-cuts with "control+" shortcuts when they copied the "original" apple shortcuts...
