1933 redux

Jason Henderson

Because it sounded like you were implying that all those in favor of war in iraq were mindless automotans (followers).

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Chris Losinger

then i didn't get my point across. i was trying to point out that historical analogies are basically useless (or at least the Saddam=Hitler one is). -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

The countries on the east side of the iron curtain, yes. The rest of Europe, no. Socialdemocrats (most common left wing parties in Europe) are right wing fascists in the eyes of old school Soviet communists. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

peterchen

All IMO: You can't put "all -isms except democratic capital-" into one pot. 1. This binary view is dangerous, for it creates an "us vs. them" scenario that is a building block of the most evil -isms. 2. neither a representative democracy, nor capitalism have outstanding features that justify this separation. 3. it is too simplistic to model the issues at hand (although I know a black/white world is easier to live in - and I'd prefer to live in one, too). "State" or "Government", in their nature are social structures that evolve themselves once enough people have to live together. You can't avoid them. Social care for the needy has been - always up to a point - part of every viable social structure, and be it only for brutal point: keep them from revolting. It's strange how quickly the right wing of the U.S., so proud of and eager to point out their supremacy over other countries, despises one of it's elemental keys: a federal government able to unite this many people to a common goal (whatever it is). Stan Shannon wrote: If my country were allowed to function the way it was designed, This argument is a bit weak, for if communism would work as designed, capitalism would be no more. And the fall of the Weimar Republic is a tale not to be forgotten: how a "good"* society can turn "bad". The concept of freedom as "no interference I don't like" is the very heart of a communist Kommune. Unless you go to the woods, someone, somehow, will always interfere with your life. And if it's not someone, it's something - may it be a hungry bear, or a hailstorm devasting your crops. *) I would have written "liberal", but your country has almost succeeded tp turn this word from it's original meaning into a term of disgrace.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
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KaRl

Interesting point of view ;) Chris Losinger wrote: this piece lines up many times more points than any of the Saddam==Hitler analogies I've seen However it's a fact SH has always been a great admirer of Adolf, and modeled his political movement as the NSDAP. That's why the fascist far-right supports SH here in France Chris Losinger wrote: but Ashcroft is a fascist, without a doubt Once made the difference between nazism and fascism, could we perhaps consider that US has fascist tendancies in some way, for example by choosing Force prevailing over the Right.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

peterchen

I didn't read it as that either - and I think "useless" is to strong. Just "be careful with". History is a list of examples what can happen in certain situations, and analogies are their hash key, so to speak.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen

KaRl

Not the Freedom.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Socialdemocrats (most common left wing parties in Europe) are right wing fascists in the eyes of old school Soviet communists Good luck to explain that to the ultras! ;)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

Didn't Hegel say there is no "lesson in History" (:~ ), that we were unable to learn from it?

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Chris Losinger

peterchen wrote: and analogies are their hash key, so to speak. if the hash algorithm is any good, it will be impossible to deduce the input to the hash from its output. so... given an analogy, it should be impossible to determine the inputs that caused it! ooh. i love a good analogy! :) -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

They believe moderates are left wing scum. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

KaRl

They even believe democrats are left-oriented! :)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Jorgen Sigvardsson

They probably believe that democracy is leftist. ;) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

KaRl

I voted a 5. Your message became red. Good Luck! :-D

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Jorgen Sigvardsson

:omg: I'm... a commie! Front Line Assembly once sung "I'd rather be a commie than a fascist". I couldn't agree more. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Jorgen Sigvardsson

And if the hash algorithm is flawed, you can feasibly find two inputs producing the same hash. :) Maybe that's the root "problem" of your original analogy? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

KaRl

IMHO, It's like having to choose between being quarterred or burning at stake :~

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Chris Losinger

:) yep -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

Not really actually. Communism wasn't designed to break the people, fascism was. However, communism has never been implemented properly, nor will it ever. It's a utopia. -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Stan Shannon

peterchen wrote: The concept of freedom as "no interference I don't like" is the very heart of a communist Kommune. Unless you go to the woods, someone, somehow, will always interfere with your life. And if it's not someone, it's something - may it be a hungry bear, or a hailstorm devasting your crops. But I do not cuncur with that definition of freedom, I'm not a libetarian. I fully believe that society has the right to interfer with how I conduct my life. That is, standards and rules of conduct are essential for a civil social order. However, in the context of American federalism, that civil order has tradtionally been understood to come from the bottom up, local government, etc, not from the top down, federal government. Freedom means the same thing as personal responsibility. To be free means to be willing to take personal responsibility for your own welfare to the greatest extent practically possible. Anyone who is not willing to take such resonsibility can never be free. This does not mean you are a law unto yourself, but it does mean that the degree to which government assumes those responsibilities should be kept to a strict, well defined, constitutioanlly protected, minimum. Such a definition of freedom is entirely dependent upon free market capitalism. Only in a free market do I have the power as an individual to avail myself of those resources I need to conduct my life in my own free way. I don't need the government prividing for me, I simply need the government to leave sufficient resources circulating freely in the economy so that I can take (and produce) as much as I am capable or willing to do. peterchen wrote: You can't put "all -isms except democratic capital-" into one pot. 1. This binary view is dangerous, for it creates an "us vs. them" scenario that is a building block of the most evil -isms. 2. neither a representative democracy, nor capitalism have outstanding features that justify this separation. 3. it is too simplistic to model the issues at hand (although I know a black/white world is easier to live in - and I'd prefer to live in one, too). I am feeling increasingly all the time that we are in an "us vs. them" scenario. Political systems by their very nature desire control. They are like living entities which survive by acquiring ever greater control over the masses. I beleive that the various political entities of this planet, including my own, feel increasingly threatened by the central prin