Blackmail
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Amazed nobody here brought this up, seems like sure fire material for us lot :-D Basically an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed a human shield in Palestine the other day. What should not make any difference but obviously does was that the person killed was an American woman. Now I am pretty sure plenty of people have already been trampled by bulldozers over the last few years in that region. But now that it was an American woman the matter has claimed front page status here. The obvious thing happened as well as Palestinians are using it to show how barbaric and awful those nasty Israelis are. They see the potential of using that the victim was American. Anyway my wandering point is: A radio station last night was asking wether the death was "justified." Now death is rarely justified, but in my ever not so humble opinion this death was. The woman stood before a bulldozer. She was there as a human shield. She knew the consequences. She knew Israelis don't negotiate and don't fold to threats. To me it is blackmail. If Israel backs down and does not bulldoze the shack, subsequently killing the human shield, then every Tom, Dick and Sheila is going to rush off and be human sheilds to save the poor Palestinians because they see that their lives really are not in danger because the Israelis won't run you over to get to the house. But if Israel does go ahead, run over the human sheild and bulldoze the house then the anti-Israelis have ammo to show how barabaric the Israelis are. Just what the hell do the Israelis do (lets not go asking wether bulldozing shacks is proper or not ok, lets assume it is for this thread)?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
It strikes me as an accident - they were there to demolish buildings and this slowed them down. Quicker to pull her (small unarmed human) out the way surely? Those bulldozers are armoured and have thick glass too. Maybe it was murder - I can't say but it seems very unlikely. Very sad. Davy Blog for Software Testing, Bugs, Quality, Security and Stability - www.latedecember.com
News From Angus, Scotland - The Angus Blog -
Damn! Beaten by a few seconds!
It's not the fall that kills you: it's the sudden stop - Down by Law, Jim Jamursch (1986)
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Tim Smith wrote: They were searching for underground tunnels being used to smuggle weapons. I got that from the article and understand the motivation. I just have a problem with the way they go about it. Seems excessively heavy handed to me. The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.
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Amazed nobody here brought this up, seems like sure fire material for us lot :-D Basically an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed a human shield in Palestine the other day. What should not make any difference but obviously does was that the person killed was an American woman. Now I am pretty sure plenty of people have already been trampled by bulldozers over the last few years in that region. But now that it was an American woman the matter has claimed front page status here. The obvious thing happened as well as Palestinians are using it to show how barbaric and awful those nasty Israelis are. They see the potential of using that the victim was American. Anyway my wandering point is: A radio station last night was asking wether the death was "justified." Now death is rarely justified, but in my ever not so humble opinion this death was. The woman stood before a bulldozer. She was there as a human shield. She knew the consequences. She knew Israelis don't negotiate and don't fold to threats. To me it is blackmail. If Israel backs down and does not bulldoze the shack, subsequently killing the human shield, then every Tom, Dick and Sheila is going to rush off and be human sheilds to save the poor Palestinians because they see that their lives really are not in danger because the Israelis won't run you over to get to the house. But if Israel does go ahead, run over the human sheild and bulldoze the house then the anti-Israelis have ammo to show how barabaric the Israelis are. Just what the hell do the Israelis do (lets not go asking wether bulldozing shacks is proper or not ok, lets assume it is for this thread)?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
This is the woman run over: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030317/168/3j5nj.html[^] Seen here burning an American flag and inciting violence in Palestinian territories. What a gal. Too bad she became a speed bump for peace.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi -
Amazed nobody here brought this up, seems like sure fire material for us lot :-D Basically an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed a human shield in Palestine the other day. What should not make any difference but obviously does was that the person killed was an American woman. Now I am pretty sure plenty of people have already been trampled by bulldozers over the last few years in that region. But now that it was an American woman the matter has claimed front page status here. The obvious thing happened as well as Palestinians are using it to show how barbaric and awful those nasty Israelis are. They see the potential of using that the victim was American. Anyway my wandering point is: A radio station last night was asking wether the death was "justified." Now death is rarely justified, but in my ever not so humble opinion this death was. The woman stood before a bulldozer. She was there as a human shield. She knew the consequences. She knew Israelis don't negotiate and don't fold to threats. To me it is blackmail. If Israel backs down and does not bulldoze the shack, subsequently killing the human shield, then every Tom, Dick and Sheila is going to rush off and be human sheilds to save the poor Palestinians because they see that their lives really are not in danger because the Israelis won't run you over to get to the house. But if Israel does go ahead, run over the human sheild and bulldoze the house then the anti-Israelis have ammo to show how barabaric the Israelis are. Just what the hell do the Israelis do (lets not go asking wether bulldozing shacks is proper or not ok, lets assume it is for this thread)?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Well you should of see that buldozer to understand the meaning. I served in Israel army, so I can tell from "first hand". When you sit on it, you just CANNOT see anything that in 5 meters around you (approx. of course). So if anyone is willing to die, he/she can easy just jump before it. Easy Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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Well you should of see that buldozer to understand the meaning. I served in Israel army, so I can tell from "first hand". When you sit on it, you just CANNOT see anything that in 5 meters around you (approx. of course). So if anyone is willing to die, he/she can easy just jump before it. Easy Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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This is the woman run over: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030317/168/3j5nj.html[^] Seen here burning an American flag and inciting violence in Palestinian territories. What a gal. Too bad she became a speed bump for peace.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiJust looking at her (and others around her) face could tell that those are not a normal people. My mother is working as a doctor in psychiatric clinic.. I've seen there much nicer faces :) Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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Philip Patrick wrote: I served in Israel army, so I can tell from "first hand" What's your opinion about destroying houses :confused:?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
If army went to do it, then they had a good reason. Believe me that they are not picking houses like "Let's destroy this one and that one, will be funny". All houses that were destroyed, had/belong to/used by/etc. terrorists and/or their families (only those who supported their sons/brothers/husbands in their "holy" war). As an Israeli (civillian) I would say - destroy them all, just because of anger and sadness. Of course army and goverment cannot take such steps, they have laws (yes, there is a law to destroy terrorist-suicider's house), etc. Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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Amazed nobody here brought this up, seems like sure fire material for us lot :-D Basically an Israeli bulldozer ran over and killed a human shield in Palestine the other day. What should not make any difference but obviously does was that the person killed was an American woman. Now I am pretty sure plenty of people have already been trampled by bulldozers over the last few years in that region. But now that it was an American woman the matter has claimed front page status here. The obvious thing happened as well as Palestinians are using it to show how barbaric and awful those nasty Israelis are. They see the potential of using that the victim was American. Anyway my wandering point is: A radio station last night was asking wether the death was "justified." Now death is rarely justified, but in my ever not so humble opinion this death was. The woman stood before a bulldozer. She was there as a human shield. She knew the consequences. She knew Israelis don't negotiate and don't fold to threats. To me it is blackmail. If Israel backs down and does not bulldoze the shack, subsequently killing the human shield, then every Tom, Dick and Sheila is going to rush off and be human sheilds to save the poor Palestinians because they see that their lives really are not in danger because the Israelis won't run you over to get to the house. But if Israel does go ahead, run over the human sheild and bulldoze the house then the anti-Israelis have ammo to show how barabaric the Israelis are. Just what the hell do the Israelis do (lets not go asking wether bulldozing shacks is proper or not ok, lets assume it is for this thread)?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
Well, if you stand in front of a moving bulldozer, you should expect to get hurt or killed if you don't move. I have no sympathy for stupid fucking people. I think her death merely improved the gene pool. Lastly, what about her "friends" that were standing there watching her get run over? Why didn't they pull the stupid bitch out of the way? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
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Paul Watson wrote: Now death is rarely justified, but in my ever not so humble opinion this death was. The woman stood before a bulldozer. Agreed. BTW, although it was reported in the US, no significant groups (or media) are making it out as a big international incident. She put herself in a VERY dangerous situation and suffered the ultimate consequence. "Au revoir" "Adiós" "Auf Wiedersehen" "Arrivederci" Mike Mullikin :beer:
"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson
It's probably a good warning to others that the term 'human shield' means what it says, and that the emphasis is on the 'human' bit ( hide behind an inch of lead and the lead takes the bullets, hide behind a person, and they do ). Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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No, there was no way, as I posted below. The buldozer is too big and its driver just cannot see everything that happens around him. This is an explaintation Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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If army went to do it, then they had a good reason. Believe me that they are not picking houses like "Let's destroy this one and that one, will be funny". All houses that were destroyed, had/belong to/used by/etc. terrorists and/or their families (only those who supported their sons/brothers/husbands in their "holy" war). As an Israeli (civillian) I would say - destroy them all, just because of anger and sadness. Of course army and goverment cannot take such steps, they have laws (yes, there is a law to destroy terrorist-suicider's house), etc. Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
Are these people tried before the family abode is destroyed? How is guilt determined? The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.
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Wow - there's something other than Iraq on the news tonight. I just sat through half an hour of it, the only other topic was the weather (which is likely to reach the dizzy heights of 18 this weekend :jig: ). As for the question - it's stupid to pretend to be a human shield if you aren't taking it seriously. You should also take your opponent seriously, and not underestimate them. I'm not saying it's nice to run people over with bulldozers, but as you say, she knew what she was getting into. There was news about 10 days ago that a whole load of British human shields in Iraq were flying home due to fears for their own safety. Possibly one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
I may try to delete my CP cookies. But its almost like tossing the keys of the appartment into the river. - Andreas Saurwein
Megan Forbes wrote: There was news about 10 days ago that a whole load of British human shields in Iraq were flying home due to fears for their own safety. Possibly one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. That's just *great*. What did they THINK they were going to be in when they went ? Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Well, if you stand in front of a moving bulldozer, you should expect to get hurt or killed if you don't move. I have no sympathy for stupid fucking people. I think her death merely improved the gene pool. Lastly, what about her "friends" that were standing there watching her get run over? Why didn't they pull the stupid bitch out of the way? ------- signature starts "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 Please review the Legal Disclaimer in my bio. ------- signature ends
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Lastly, what about her "friends" that were standing there watching her get run over? Why didn't they pull the stupid bitch out of the way? Here Here! We will have no talk or inference of common sense here :) The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.
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If army went to do it, then they had a good reason. Believe me that they are not picking houses like "Let's destroy this one and that one, will be funny". All houses that were destroyed, had/belong to/used by/etc. terrorists and/or their families (only those who supported their sons/brothers/husbands in their "holy" war). As an Israeli (civillian) I would say - destroy them all, just because of anger and sadness. Of course army and goverment cannot take such steps, they have laws (yes, there is a law to destroy terrorist-suicider's house), etc. Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
Philip Patrick wrote: All houses that were destroyed, had/belong to/used by/etc. terrorists and/or their families (only those who supported their sons/brothers/husbands in their "holy" war). I can understand your anger, as I can understand their :rose: Destroying relatives' house seems to me like a collective punishment, which is a deny of the human rights by punishing somebody for somebody else crimes. How do you see the arrival on the political scene of a palestinian prime minister? Do you think it may lead to peace?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Wow - there's something other than Iraq on the news tonight. I just sat through half an hour of it, the only other topic was the weather (which is likely to reach the dizzy heights of 18 this weekend :jig: ). As for the question - it's stupid to pretend to be a human shield if you aren't taking it seriously. You should also take your opponent seriously, and not underestimate them. I'm not saying it's nice to run people over with bulldozers, but as you say, she knew what she was getting into. There was news about 10 days ago that a whole load of British human shields in Iraq were flying home due to fears for their own safety. Possibly one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.
I may try to delete my CP cookies. But its almost like tossing the keys of the appartment into the river. - Andreas Saurwein
I have no idea whether it is an accident or not. But, the BBC story says that they were once pushed away by the bulldozer and a side of a house destroyed while they were still in it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2856433.stm[^] Since it is Israel, it is assumed that this is an accident, unless proven otherwise. Had it happened in any other country, say Syria, would the response have been the same? My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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Yet another cleansing of the gene pool! Survival of the fittest :-D - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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Are these people tried before the family abode is destroyed? How is guilt determined? The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.
Of course not me is determying their guilt. The court do. And not ALL such houses were destroyed. Only those where families were in this or other way supporting suiciders, and of course it was documented (filmed for example). Just making a holiday meal and yelling "Go, Go" is called supporting as well. And this is one of the ways Israel is trying to fight with bomb-suiciders. I'm not sure this is an efficient way, since those families getting a lot of money (30-40 thousands dollars, which is a LOT in Palestine), so they really can afford buying a new house Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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Philip Patrick wrote: All houses that were destroyed, had/belong to/used by/etc. terrorists and/or their families (only those who supported their sons/brothers/husbands in their "holy" war). I can understand your anger, as I can understand their :rose: Destroying relatives' house seems to me like a collective punishment, which is a deny of the human rights by punishing somebody for somebody else crimes. How do you see the arrival on the political scene of a palestinian prime minister? Do you think it may lead to peace?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
Another example from real life. Note that I mentioned "supporting" before. So here is an example (not connected to Israel-Palestinian conflict). Imaging: John kills someone and John's friend knew all about what he is going to do and even said him "go for it" (documented). John was caught and what? You think John's friend will stay clear? But he didn't killed anybody! So why they are putting hi into prison too (punishing)? Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
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Of course not me is determying their guilt. The court do. And not ALL such houses were destroyed. Only those where families were in this or other way supporting suiciders, and of course it was documented (filmed for example). Just making a holiday meal and yelling "Go, Go" is called supporting as well. And this is one of the ways Israel is trying to fight with bomb-suiciders. I'm not sure this is an efficient way, since those families getting a lot of money (30-40 thousands dollars, which is a LOT in Palestine), so they really can afford buying a new house Philip Patrick Web-site: www.stpworks.com "Two beer or not two beer?" Shakesbeer
Philip Patrick wrote: The court do Cool. I was just curious. I didn't mean to imply that it was you picking an choosing. We get little coverage of the 'whole story' over here so I ask questions whenever I can. The word abbreviation is awfully long for what it means.
