for old-timers: remember "More," and David Dunham's "Acta" for the Mac ?
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I hope you'll cut me an ounce of prime-slack if I float a general question hearkening back to the olden times when 64k was a big honking number as un-affordable as a Rolex. This is not "market research." Back in the day, the More (son of ThinkTank) outlining-and-lots-more application created originally by that singular character, Dave Winer[1] [^] (who went to start some interesting pre-Net stuff, like Userland), was a big deal. Sales of More, if I recall correctly, were up there with the big productivity apps of the day (WordStar ? Lotus 1-2-3). And, there was a cool "desk accessory" outliner by David Dunham [^] for the Mac called "Acta" that was in widespread use. Dunham went on to create the Opal outliner for Mac OSX ... which I've never seen. Here's the question: what led to the general decline (assuming there was a general decline) in the use of outliners/outlining ? Could use of outlining have not really declined: it's just that the major productivity tools, like MS Word and Excel, now incorporated "folding" or outlining abilities ? So dedicated apps were no longer needed ? Or, outlining was something of a time-limited phenom, a trend that did not persist ? Yet another "viral phenomenon" triggered by a bunch of power-users generating hype fed to them by marketers, followed by a bunch of lemmings singing: "oh yeah, I gotta have that ?" on the way to the app-store :) I'd appreciate hearing from any old-time users of More or other outliners as to what you think may have happened vis-a-vis outlining tools in wide use. Perhaps, it's just that UI's (apps, internet) featuring drill-down, folding, hierarchic navigation, master-detail, etc., are just so ubiquitous today, that there's no need to have a special tool ? thanks, Bill [1] My favorite memory of Dave was at the fancy dinner soiree thrown by Steve Jobs as part of the NeXT roll-out: Dave stood up and shouted at Jobs from across the spacious banquet-hall: "How are we going to make any money when it doesn't have a floppy drive ?" The issue of the high-cost of distributing software on the expensive media for the Canon magneto-optical drive for the NeXT machine was an issue on the mind of many developers.
«A man will be imprisone
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I hope you'll cut me an ounce of prime-slack if I float a general question hearkening back to the olden times when 64k was a big honking number as un-affordable as a Rolex. This is not "market research." Back in the day, the More (son of ThinkTank) outlining-and-lots-more application created originally by that singular character, Dave Winer[1] [^] (who went to start some interesting pre-Net stuff, like Userland), was a big deal. Sales of More, if I recall correctly, were up there with the big productivity apps of the day (WordStar ? Lotus 1-2-3). And, there was a cool "desk accessory" outliner by David Dunham [^] for the Mac called "Acta" that was in widespread use. Dunham went on to create the Opal outliner for Mac OSX ... which I've never seen. Here's the question: what led to the general decline (assuming there was a general decline) in the use of outliners/outlining ? Could use of outlining have not really declined: it's just that the major productivity tools, like MS Word and Excel, now incorporated "folding" or outlining abilities ? So dedicated apps were no longer needed ? Or, outlining was something of a time-limited phenom, a trend that did not persist ? Yet another "viral phenomenon" triggered by a bunch of power-users generating hype fed to them by marketers, followed by a bunch of lemmings singing: "oh yeah, I gotta have that ?" on the way to the app-store :) I'd appreciate hearing from any old-time users of More or other outliners as to what you think may have happened vis-a-vis outlining tools in wide use. Perhaps, it's just that UI's (apps, internet) featuring drill-down, folding, hierarchic navigation, master-detail, etc., are just so ubiquitous today, that there's no need to have a special tool ? thanks, Bill [1] My favorite memory of Dave was at the fancy dinner soiree thrown by Steve Jobs as part of the NeXT roll-out: Dave stood up and shouted at Jobs from across the spacious banquet-hall: "How are we going to make any money when it doesn't have a floppy drive ?" The issue of the high-cost of distributing software on the expensive media for the Canon magneto-optical drive for the NeXT machine was an issue on the mind of many developers.
«A man will be imprisone
When I wrote those e-books, the outline feature in Word was crucial. I used it two ways -- first, I created an outline down to a sufficient level of detail so that I knew I had enough content and I knew what content I needed to research in depth and what content I needed to simply talk about. Second, while writing, I would often realize that the organization was flawed -- I'm introducing a concept later that I actually need to introduce earlier, for example. Again, the outline really helped to see the flow of things. I certainly don't need an outlining tool (unless it were really sophisticated, more like HyperCard (since you're bringing up great but old apps) because I would just fire up Word. However, even when writing a lengthy article, I don't outline because I can just move stuff around if I need to, and I think that may point to why outlining has declined -- used to be, you HAD to write an outline because you were then going to type your paper out on a typewriter. Ugh. Then we lived in this quasi-automated state where we replaced our activities with computers, such as with specific outlining software, and eventually these programs simply became components of much more sophisticated programs. However, I really would like an outlining tool that could manage both online and offline references, code snippets, personal commentaries, pictures, file links, etc. Which is why I mentioned HyperCard and which actually is why I started writing Intertexti[^] and actually use it a lot myself for note taking. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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When I wrote those e-books, the outline feature in Word was crucial. I used it two ways -- first, I created an outline down to a sufficient level of detail so that I knew I had enough content and I knew what content I needed to research in depth and what content I needed to simply talk about. Second, while writing, I would often realize that the organization was flawed -- I'm introducing a concept later that I actually need to introduce earlier, for example. Again, the outline really helped to see the flow of things. I certainly don't need an outlining tool (unless it were really sophisticated, more like HyperCard (since you're bringing up great but old apps) because I would just fire up Word. However, even when writing a lengthy article, I don't outline because I can just move stuff around if I need to, and I think that may point to why outlining has declined -- used to be, you HAD to write an outline because you were then going to type your paper out on a typewriter. Ugh. Then we lived in this quasi-automated state where we replaced our activities with computers, such as with specific outlining software, and eventually these programs simply became components of much more sophisticated programs. However, I really would like an outlining tool that could manage both online and offline references, code snippets, personal commentaries, pictures, file links, etc. Which is why I mentioned HyperCard and which actually is why I started writing Intertexti[^] and actually use it a lot myself for note taking. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
Thanks, Marc, that's exactly the kind of thoughtful response I hoped I would get ! Like you, I use my own custom-made outliner; I do intend to publish it one day on CP, but every time I think it's "ready for prime-time," I think of ... another feature it has to have :) Oh yeah, HyperCard/HyperTalk was a very cool thing in its day, and I had a lot of fun with it. It was kind of too bad that Jobs put the kibosh on Crow and Calhoun getting to release their last amped-up version of HyperCard (3.0 that was previewed at the WWDC in '96, but which, I was told, was in development for a few years after that), but, as a business decision (following the ejecting, and then re-incorporation, of Claris, etc.), it probably made sense. cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
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I hope you'll cut me an ounce of prime-slack if I float a general question hearkening back to the olden times when 64k was a big honking number as un-affordable as a Rolex. This is not "market research." Back in the day, the More (son of ThinkTank) outlining-and-lots-more application created originally by that singular character, Dave Winer[1] [^] (who went to start some interesting pre-Net stuff, like Userland), was a big deal. Sales of More, if I recall correctly, were up there with the big productivity apps of the day (WordStar ? Lotus 1-2-3). And, there was a cool "desk accessory" outliner by David Dunham [^] for the Mac called "Acta" that was in widespread use. Dunham went on to create the Opal outliner for Mac OSX ... which I've never seen. Here's the question: what led to the general decline (assuming there was a general decline) in the use of outliners/outlining ? Could use of outlining have not really declined: it's just that the major productivity tools, like MS Word and Excel, now incorporated "folding" or outlining abilities ? So dedicated apps were no longer needed ? Or, outlining was something of a time-limited phenom, a trend that did not persist ? Yet another "viral phenomenon" triggered by a bunch of power-users generating hype fed to them by marketers, followed by a bunch of lemmings singing: "oh yeah, I gotta have that ?" on the way to the app-store :) I'd appreciate hearing from any old-time users of More or other outliners as to what you think may have happened vis-a-vis outlining tools in wide use. Perhaps, it's just that UI's (apps, internet) featuring drill-down, folding, hierarchic navigation, master-detail, etc., are just so ubiquitous today, that there's no need to have a special tool ? thanks, Bill [1] My favorite memory of Dave was at the fancy dinner soiree thrown by Steve Jobs as part of the NeXT roll-out: Dave stood up and shouted at Jobs from across the spacious banquet-hall: "How are we going to make any money when it doesn't have a floppy drive ?" The issue of the high-cost of distributing software on the expensive media for the Canon magneto-optical drive for the NeXT machine was an issue on the mind of many developers.
«A man will be imprisone
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So, why did you stop using it ? Or, do you use some other tool, now ? cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
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I hope you'll cut me an ounce of prime-slack if I float a general question hearkening back to the olden times when 64k was a big honking number as un-affordable as a Rolex. This is not "market research." Back in the day, the More (son of ThinkTank) outlining-and-lots-more application created originally by that singular character, Dave Winer[1] [^] (who went to start some interesting pre-Net stuff, like Userland), was a big deal. Sales of More, if I recall correctly, were up there with the big productivity apps of the day (WordStar ? Lotus 1-2-3). And, there was a cool "desk accessory" outliner by David Dunham [^] for the Mac called "Acta" that was in widespread use. Dunham went on to create the Opal outliner for Mac OSX ... which I've never seen. Here's the question: what led to the general decline (assuming there was a general decline) in the use of outliners/outlining ? Could use of outlining have not really declined: it's just that the major productivity tools, like MS Word and Excel, now incorporated "folding" or outlining abilities ? So dedicated apps were no longer needed ? Or, outlining was something of a time-limited phenom, a trend that did not persist ? Yet another "viral phenomenon" triggered by a bunch of power-users generating hype fed to them by marketers, followed by a bunch of lemmings singing: "oh yeah, I gotta have that ?" on the way to the app-store :) I'd appreciate hearing from any old-time users of More or other outliners as to what you think may have happened vis-a-vis outlining tools in wide use. Perhaps, it's just that UI's (apps, internet) featuring drill-down, folding, hierarchic navigation, master-detail, etc., are just so ubiquitous today, that there's no need to have a special tool ? thanks, Bill [1] My favorite memory of Dave was at the fancy dinner soiree thrown by Steve Jobs as part of the NeXT roll-out: Dave stood up and shouted at Jobs from across the spacious banquet-hall: "How are we going to make any money when it doesn't have a floppy drive ?" The issue of the high-cost of distributing software on the expensive media for the Canon magneto-optical drive for the NeXT machine was an issue on the mind of many developers.
«A man will be imprisone
What I do remember is that More was yet another of the things that were ten-thousand times better for use in producing documentation than XML is. What I can't remember is something that's less than a thousand times better.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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When I wrote those e-books, the outline feature in Word was crucial. I used it two ways -- first, I created an outline down to a sufficient level of detail so that I knew I had enough content and I knew what content I needed to research in depth and what content I needed to simply talk about. Second, while writing, I would often realize that the organization was flawed -- I'm introducing a concept later that I actually need to introduce earlier, for example. Again, the outline really helped to see the flow of things. I certainly don't need an outlining tool (unless it were really sophisticated, more like HyperCard (since you're bringing up great but old apps) because I would just fire up Word. However, even when writing a lengthy article, I don't outline because I can just move stuff around if I need to, and I think that may point to why outlining has declined -- used to be, you HAD to write an outline because you were then going to type your paper out on a typewriter. Ugh. Then we lived in this quasi-automated state where we replaced our activities with computers, such as with specific outlining software, and eventually these programs simply became components of much more sophisticated programs. However, I really would like an outlining tool that could manage both online and offline references, code snippets, personal commentaries, pictures, file links, etc. Which is why I mentioned HyperCard and which actually is why I started writing Intertexti[^] and actually use it a lot myself for note taking. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
OK, that settles it. I'm going to do an article for CP that shows how to structure documents (whether they're tech docs or the next great Icelandic bestsellers). Here's a tip: "sophistication" isn't meant to mean "time-consuming", "difficult to use", or "hard to remember". Elegance, no matter how complicated it is, is simplicity.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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OK, that settles it. I'm going to do an article for CP that shows how to structure documents (whether they're tech docs or the next great Icelandic bestsellers). Here's a tip: "sophistication" isn't meant to mean "time-consuming", "difficult to use", or "hard to remember". Elegance, no matter how complicated it is, is simplicity.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
I'm going to do an article for CP that shows how to structure documents (whether they're tech docs or the next great Icelandic bestsellers).
I look forward to reading it! Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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So, why did you stop using it ? Or, do you use some other tool, now ? cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein