Silly question, if Iraq is disarmed why are they firing Scuds?
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KaЯl wrote: Could France do more?! Yes. France could have proposed an honest approach that had repercussions if not followed through on. Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. I don't know if you have children or not but if you do, try telling them to do something they don't want to do or telling them not to do something they want to do. If disobedience doesn't have a consequence, you ultimately become not a parent but a joke. In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. Still opinion, France was more interested in preserving a friendship with Iraq than it was in stepping up to it's Security Council role. France and the rest of the council ( US included ) slept while hundreds of thousands of Africans have been slaughtered. Africa, again - my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. Even in Europe, France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia. The end result, by the way, of not countering with a proposal that had any force to back it up is the demise of the one instituition ( UN Security Council ) that gave France a world stage. Mike
Mike Gaskey wrote: Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. France refused to have an automatic authorization of war, an ultimatum, because IMO they feared the US would never have been satisfied, and would have gone to war whatever. Before Bush ultimatum, chirac agreed on the concept of a 30-day timetable but with a final decision from the council before attacking, but IMO too late. Mike Gaskey wrote: In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. The vision you have is biased: France always said SH needed to be disarmed, that he could have WMD and that UN inspections were this time efficient. Mike Gaskey wrote: my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. That's the problem, you have opinions, deep beliefs, but which are in fact clichés. I read in the US newspapers the legend of France searching its old past "Grandeur"... it was true with De Gaulle.. 40 years ago! Since 30 years, France has a new dream, and it's called Europe. Mike Gaskey wrote: France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia That the shame of Europe. We europeans are unable to have a common stance on foreign policy (and it worsens these days). Some of the countries in the EU refuse to do anything without the support of the US. And because the concept is "all, or no one", nothing moves, and I hate that. Incredible. I have to defend Chirac. If somebody told me that 1 year ago I would never have believed it.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Doug Goulden wrote: I don't know that we can not take the chance. where's the greater danger: taking out one possible source of bio/chem weapons (in a world full of such sources) or creating a new reason for young men to use weapons that have nothing to do with bio/chem to express their new hatred of America? you know my answer. Doug Goulden wrote: But I don't think that some of the people that we have had problems with in the past (Quadafi, UBL, SH) particularly need a good excuse to hate us. true. but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries? -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries I think that IF it is done right, the US and the UK and other nations that work together can show that people will no longer stand by and watch silently while there is evil in the world. Thats sounds simplistic, but I think when people hear the Iraqi people's side of the story, we will come out with a better world opinion. The interesting thing is that a lot of the Eastern European nations are supportive of the attack, I wonder if they have a deeper understanding of what the Iraqi people are going through and what SH is about. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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That's it! On the 25th when I get my salary, I'm going to buy a big juicy ox filet. I'm not sure if I want pommes frites (btw, in Sweden we use the french words :)) with it though. I don't know the english translation for it, but it's kind of like pommes frites. Basically it's fried potatos, but they're thicker and not square. Imagine cutting up a potato in four parts. And maybe I'll buy myself some wine too. Do you have any wine recommendations? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I don't know the english translation for it potato wedges. I like mine with cheese melted over them. mmmm.:) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
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That's not why we disagree with the US government that we have to threat or punish the US citizens! We aren't so childish! ;) BTW, we don't export fries. TBelgium does :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: we don't export fries. TBelgium does :laugh: BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
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brianwelsch wrote: without any real action inspections were working - things were being found and destroyed. while it might not satisfy the impatient, it appeared to be working. it didn't require the US to alienate our allies, and it didn't require a war: something which will only stir up even more anti-US feeling. but whatever. you got your fucking war. enjoy it while it lasts. -c
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I am very torn here. As I said somewhere earlier, the original coalition and UNSCOM really failed here. When SH began to challenge the original inspections, the coalition should have immediately rectified the situation. But, our governments let us down and allowed this to go on for far too long. Even if the invasion was unavoidable, I would have preferred that it was presented and handled with more patience. GHB did a great job but GWB just "cowboyed up" and isolated us. Man, I wonder if he regrets any of his early aggressive rhetoric? Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton
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brianwelsch wrote: without any real action inspections were working - things were being found and destroyed. while it might not satisfy the impatient, it appeared to be working. it didn't require the US to alienate our allies, and it didn't require a war: something which will only stir up even more anti-US feeling. but whatever. you got your fucking war. enjoy it while it lasts. -c
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It's nice to know that we can vote somebody with a better foreign policy plan into office next year. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies
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Mike Gaskey wrote: Point in fact, well I'll correct, my opinion is that France is against anything that requires anything with consequences. France refused to have an automatic authorization of war, an ultimatum, because IMO they feared the US would never have been satisfied, and would have gone to war whatever. Before Bush ultimatum, chirac agreed on the concept of a 30-day timetable but with a final decision from the council before attacking, but IMO too late. Mike Gaskey wrote: In my opinion, and that is all any of us have here, France didn't care: what Iraq has, what Iraq intends or intended to do with it. The vision you have is biased: France always said SH needed to be disarmed, that he could have WMD and that UN inspections were this time efficient. Mike Gaskey wrote: my opinion, is France's sphere of influence and they should have initiated the action via the Security Council. That's the problem, you have opinions, deep beliefs, but which are in fact clichés. I read in the US newspapers the legend of France searching its old past "Grandeur"... it was true with De Gaulle.. 40 years ago! Since 30 years, France has a new dream, and it's called Europe. Mike Gaskey wrote: France's back yard, the US had to be the one to push for action --> Serbia That the shame of Europe. We europeans are unable to have a common stance on foreign policy (and it worsens these days). Some of the countries in the EU refuse to do anything without the support of the US. And because the concept is "all, or no one", nothing moves, and I hate that. Incredible. I have to defend Chirac. If somebody told me that 1 year ago I would never have believed it.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: Incredible. You handled my rant well. Thanks. I won't bother you for a week or so, off on a vacation - just had to jump in on this one though.:) Mike
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That's it! On the 25th when I get my salary, I'm going to buy a big juicy ox filet. I'm not sure if I want pommes frites (btw, in Sweden we use the french words :)) with it though. I don't know the english translation for it, but it's kind of like pommes frites. Basically it's fried potatos, but they're thicker and not square. Imagine cutting up a potato in four parts. And maybe I'll buy myself some wine too. Do you have any wine recommendations? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
It depends mainly from your taste, and my experience is still limited (but I'm actively working on it). If you want something perfumed, light but however a real wine, I would recommend a red Saumur, 2001 or 2001, it's a wine which doesn't need (and like) to age. Here we pay 3 to 4 € for a bottle in a supermarket, but I suppose it's much more higher outside. My parents now live in the Loire valley, and I always take some bottles back when I "go home". :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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they aren't firing Scuds. refresh your browser. i take that back. i just heard the military has said that they were "medium-range" missiles. which probably makes them Scuds. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: they were forbidden to have missiles that exceeded a certain range. Yes, 93 miles AFAIR. But Scuds are way more powerfull than that! - Anders Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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KaЯl wrote: Incredible. You handled my rant well. Thanks. I won't bother you for a week or so, off on a vacation - just had to jump in on this one though.:) Mike
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I don't know the english translation for it potato wedges. I like mine with cheese melted over them. mmmm.:) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
brianwelsch wrote: wedges Aaah! Yes, that's the word I was looking for. brianwelsch wrote: I like mine with cheese melted over them. mmmm Heh. What's up with you americans and cheese? :-D Try it with olive oil, garlic and some other spice (forget which.. :/ Basil-something or was it dragon-whatever-it's-called-in-english). I think I need a chef dictionary or something.. :| -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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KaЯl wrote: He put men on the Moon. Someone said that exchanging ideas through email (or similar systems) is prone to misinterpretations... Well, here's one case. This is a real case of admiration of Von Braun's work. Nothing else.
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It depends mainly from your taste, and my experience is still limited (but I'm actively working on it). If you want something perfumed, light but however a real wine, I would recommend a red Saumur, 2001 or 2001, it's a wine which doesn't need (and like) to age. Here we pay 3 to 4 € for a bottle in a supermarket, but I suppose it's much more higher outside. My parents now live in the Loire valley, and I always take some bottles back when I "go home". :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: and my experience is still limited (but I'm actively working on it). You're french, you'll be an expert one day! :) KaЯl wrote: If you want something perfumed Hugo Boss? :-D Sorry, couldn't resist. :-D I know what you mean, I think. I couldn't find a Grand Cuvée, but I did find these: http://www.systembolaget.se/pris/owa/xdisplay?p_varunr=2168&p_rest=0&p_back=xall[^] and http://www.systembolaget.se/pris/owa/xdisplay?p_varunr=12214&p_rest=0&p_back=xall[^]. The first mentioned costs around €13-14 and the latter around €7. What do you think? Have you tried any of these? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm only human you know. :) I wasn't directing that you personally, Jörgen. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'd been a bit harsher towards Bush and Blair or maybe Saddam ;) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security
brianwelsch wrote: I wasn't directing that you personally, Jörgen. I know, but I wanted to make sure there weren't any confusions. ;) brianwelsch wrote: or maybe Saddam Ah yes, of course. I'd spank his ass with a spatula until he tells me all his secrets. And then when all was revealed, I'd spank him again for being such a naughty gimp. :-D -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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KaЯl wrote: and my experience is still limited (but I'm actively working on it). You're french, you'll be an expert one day! :) KaЯl wrote: If you want something perfumed Hugo Boss? :-D Sorry, couldn't resist. :-D I know what you mean, I think. I couldn't find a Grand Cuvée, but I did find these: http://www.systembolaget.se/pris/owa/xdisplay?p_varunr=2168&p_rest=0&p_back=xall[^] and http://www.systembolaget.se/pris/owa/xdisplay?p_varunr=12214&p_rest=0&p_back=xall[^]. The first mentioned costs around €13-14 and the latter around €7. What do you think? Have you tried any of these? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: You're french, you'll be an expert one day! I have to, I have a cultural heritage to acquire :) Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: but I did find these Generally, Saumur is not a wine made to age, it doesn't improve itself. However, 1995 was an exceptional year for the Saumur (1996 was terrific too), I remember it at the best year I ever drunk. Did it age well? i don't know. In a same year, I don't find much difference between the different producers of Saumur (probably because my taste is not efficient enough yet :-O) Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: The first mentioned costs around €13-14 and the latter around €7. What do you think? Have you tried any of these? If a bottle of saumur costs 13 to 14€, how would cost a grand bordeaux! :omg: Does the transportation cost 10€?!
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Chris Losinger wrote: but did GWB need to do it in such a way as to give a reason to the other 190+ countries I think that IF it is done right, the US and the UK and other nations that work together can show that people will no longer stand by and watch silently while there is evil in the world. Thats sounds simplistic, but I think when people hear the Iraqi people's side of the story, we will come out with a better world opinion. The interesting thing is that a lot of the Eastern European nations are supportive of the attack, I wonder if they have a deeper understanding of what the Iraqi people are going through and what SH is about. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: I wonder if they have a deeper understanding of what the Iraqi people are going through and what SH is about I'm not sure, but IMHO the "eastern" governments don't care: they want the protection of the US shield, point. The people of these countries are generally less enthusiastic, like through all Europe.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: You're french, you'll be an expert one day! I have to, I have a cultural heritage to acquire :) Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: but I did find these Generally, Saumur is not a wine made to age, it doesn't improve itself. However, 1995 was an exceptional year for the Saumur (1996 was terrific too), I remember it at the best year I ever drunk. Did it age well? i don't know. In a same year, I don't find much difference between the different producers of Saumur (probably because my taste is not efficient enough yet :-O) Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: The first mentioned costs around €13-14 and the latter around €7. What do you think? Have you tried any of these? If a bottle of saumur costs 13 to 14€, how would cost a grand bordeaux! :omg: Does the transportation cost 10€?!
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: grand bordeaux The only wine with bordeux in its name I could find was Cordier Bordeaux Collection Privée - €8. The most expensive red wine I could find was Château Valandraud 1997. It costs around €400. :) White wine: Château d'Yquem 1988 - €460. :) If I'm gonna drink such an expensive wine, I'd better have a really nice female company. There's no way I'll spend that much money on a bottle of wine! :) KaЯl wrote: Does the transportation cost 10€?! Well, we have quite harsh alcohol taxes. We've got a state monopoly on alcohol with more than 3.5% alcohol (volume). And I imagine they want to make some profit. If I manage to remember, I'll buy a bottle of Saumur. Then I'll grade it and post it here. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
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Are these missiles Scud or Al-Samud-2? I would wait for several days to have a more reliable answer, I don't trust the media on the Opening Day. Scuds are these missiles derived from the German V2 of 1944, right?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
Everything is derived from V2s - particularly the US space program ! The tigress is here :-D
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KaЯl wrote: saudis crossed the frontier to fight the US Who? Al-Qaeda folks? ;) It is no surprise, really. Saudis are no longer US buddies. That may be one of the reasons why Iraq is now being invaded. The US needs a friend there...
The borders there are largely political not geographic, so this isn't surprising. Elaine The tigress is here :-D
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Just a question for the French members here ;). If SH was disarmed in '98 and was forbidden to have missles, how come he keeps shooting things he doesn't have into Kuwait? Maybe it was a big slingshot they rigged up quick like a bunny ..... Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: Just a question for the French members here . If SH was disarmed in '98 and was forbidden to have missles, how come he keeps shooting things he doesn't have into Kuwait? Maybe it was a big slingshot they rigged up quick like a bunny ..... I wondered about this too, when I saw that he was firing scuds. I looked up some information, and it looks like scuds aren't necessarily prohibited by the UN. Iraq is not allowed to have missiles which travel over 150 km (90 miles). Some scuds can travel further than this limit, but not all of them. (Iraq modified a number of scuds to increase their range - those were the ones they fired at Israel in 1991.) But, the batch of missles which the UN recently told Iraq to destroy - the Al Samoud and Al Fatah missiles - (because it was determined that they could travel upto 180 km), those are also scud missiles. Saddam was in the process of destroying them, but not all of them had been destroyed yet. Hence, when the media says "scud" it really doesn't mean anything because some Scuds are borderline illegal and others are very illegal (like the Scud-B: 185 mile range, the Al-Hussein: 400 miles range, or the Al-Abbas: 560 mile range). If, on the other hand, Saddam manages to get missiles to Israel - then those missiles are obviously outside of UN resolutions, since they have to travel hundreds of miles over Jordan before they would reach Israel. (Keep an eye out for anything like that.) http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/missilerangemap.asp[^] ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion