Need Advice On How To Handle This
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
As far as handling this project, it's hard for me to say without knowing the full details. But, as was mentioned, it's best to talk to the client directly about it. However, for the next project make sure the client pays you in draws / milestones. Don't wait until the end of it all for payment. Clients have a way of making changes anyway; you still have bills to pay.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
Oh as was said, don't damage their systems. Personally, I'd remove my software if I talked to the client and they refused to pay. Legally speaking, as a contractor, you own it unless you gave up ownership as per the agreement. But don't damage their system. If you let them keep the software and they didn't pay you could always sue them. But as was said, talk to them directly first. It could just be a communication issue.
Jeremy Falcon
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As far as handling this project, it's hard for me to say without knowing the full details. But, as was mentioned, it's best to talk to the client directly about it. However, for the next project make sure the client pays you in draws / milestones. Don't wait until the end of it all for payment. Clients have a way of making changes anyway; you still have bills to pay.
Jeremy Falcon
I've been getting paid monthly for 2 years. He just stopped responding after the first. From a copyright perspective, at least here in California, I own the rights to the code. So since he defaulted I can probably take my product back. Plus I doubt he would try to sue me down here when he's in Canada.
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Oh as was said, don't damage their systems. Personally, I'd remove my software if I talked to the client and they refused to pay. Legally speaking, as a contractor, you own it unless you gave up ownership as per the agreement. But don't damage their system. If you let them keep the software and they didn't pay you could always sue them. But as was said, talk to them directly first. It could just be a communication issue.
Jeremy Falcon
I've been getting paid for 2 years on a monthly basis. Also, we went from talking at least once a day, sometimes twice, to no contact since the first. The app is a WPF app run from a click-once off my server. I could remote in, uninstall it, then disable the click-once. That would get his attention.
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
Do not even think of deleting anything from the client system. I don't know Canadian law, I don't know California law. But it's very likely that it would be construed as the computer equivalent of criminal damage. And bear in mind, we only get your side of the story: have you spoken to them? Why not? Two years without communications at all? Not something I'd expect from either side: it may be that they have assumed you are not working on the project at all and gone elsewhere. When did you send them an invoice? What were it's terms? Talk to them, explain where you are and where you want the pair of you to be and see what they say. You can always sue them for breach of contract when you know what is going on.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I've been getting paid for 2 years on a monthly basis. Also, we went from talking at least once a day, sometimes twice, to no contact since the first. The app is a WPF app run from a click-once off my server. I could remote in, uninstall it, then disable the click-once. That would get his attention.
"since the first" - ah, you mean "first of the month"? Good grief, it's only the 12th today! I've known people who have been nursing a new-year-hangover longer than that! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I've been getting paid for 2 years on a monthly basis. Also, we went from talking at least once a day, sometimes twice, to no contact since the first. The app is a WPF app run from a click-once off my server. I could remote in, uninstall it, then disable the click-once. That would get his attention.
You know the situation better than we do man. If you've tried to contact him for almost two weeks with no luck, then I'd say something's up. Just make sure he's not on vacation, etc. Whatever the case, best of luck to you.
Jeremy Falcon
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"since the first" - ah, you mean "first of the month"? Good grief, it's only the 12th today! I've known people who have been nursing a new-year-hangover longer than that! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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"since the first" - ah, you mean "first of the month"? Good grief, it's only the 12th today! I've known people who have been nursing a new-year-hangover longer than that! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
Exactly. If he's getting paid monthly and the checks are still in the mail, it warrants a few phone calls first before going all "I'm gonna busta cap up in this mofo" gangsta on him.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
As others have said, don't sabotage the system. That could turn a misunderstanding into real conflict. And if you end up in court, I wonder if an act like that might work against you. Make every effort to contact the client... And if possible (And if you haven't already), add some logging to the server so you know if/when they're actually using it. If all use has stopped, maybe the company closed up shop. If they're still using it, then those are records you can use to support your case if you need to sue them later.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Do not even think of deleting anything from the client system. I don't know Canadian law, I don't know California law. But it's very likely that it would be construed as the computer equivalent of criminal damage. And bear in mind, we only get your side of the story: have you spoken to them? Why not? Two years without communications at all? Not something I'd expect from either side: it may be that they have assumed you are not working on the project at all and gone elsewhere. When did you send them an invoice? What were it's terms? Talk to them, explain where you are and where you want the pair of you to be and see what they say. You can always sue them for breach of contract when you know what is going on.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
You misunderstood. I've been talking to the guy daily for 2 years. Since the first of Jan, I've had no contact. I've sent emails, left voicemails, and talked to others at the company and asked them to have him contact me.... no response. I KNOW he's in the office, I KNOW he's getting my messages. He just all of a sudden started ignoring me. I think he's probably decided he's done with the project and doesn't want to settle up. I agree with your prior post that it's only the 12th, but I'm seeing him disappear, so I want to nip it at the bud now. As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it. So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention. I could put in a "Login Denied. Please contact..." kind of thing.
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You misunderstood. I've been talking to the guy daily for 2 years. Since the first of Jan, I've had no contact. I've sent emails, left voicemails, and talked to others at the company and asked them to have him contact me.... no response. I KNOW he's in the office, I KNOW he's getting my messages. He just all of a sudden started ignoring me. I think he's probably decided he's done with the project and doesn't want to settle up. I agree with your prior post that it's only the 12th, but I'm seeing him disappear, so I want to nip it at the bud now. As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it. So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention. I could put in a "Login Denied. Please contact..." kind of thing.
If he's ignoring you on purpose and you still own the software, then more power to you. I would at least announce your intentions on his voice mail first to give him some time to think about it. Just make sure it's not said in anger, but more along the lines of genuine concern, and "for safety reasons" blah blah, you'll have to suspend it to make sure non-authed users can't access the system. Has the same effect - forcing a phone call - without sounding like you're trying to retaliate.
Jeremy Falcon
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
I'm not sure I'd agree with everything that's been posted so far: Removing something to the value of what you are owed, especially if you provided it, is almost certainly not illegal per se (that comes under a legal concept of "self-help"). There is no crime of theft as you are holding an item until it's paid for (under some definitions, the client is the thief). Normally, this should only be done after a notice period, but notifying the client may remove your ability to do this. Certainly you should give notice after (if) you've done it. Next, as you have been paid for 2 years, ownership of your product may be complicated. Under many consultancy contracts, you are only owed for the services supplied during the last period. A lot will depend on what the contract says. Clearly doing malicious damage could be, and probably is, a crime. Again interpretation is key here and if removing what you've not been paid for breaks something else it is probably not criminal, but subject to civil law. Another point is that removing your software doesn't necessarily settle your claim as, unless you can sell it to recover your loss, you have still suffered damage. Some notes of caution:
- Unless the contract dictates otherwise, this is subject to Canadian law, not American, so advice that applies to America is probably not much use. Canadian law has much more in common with British law from which it was derived
- Canadian courts tend to favour the "little guy" and if the client has the assets you might consider suing them here
- Canada has very strict border controls. Falling foul of the law (here or there) could see you prevented from entering Canada
- I'm not a lawyer and, although I've been around a bit, you should probably seek legal advice (germane to Canada) before doing anything drastic
As said by others, try contacting them, but I wouldn't threaten any action other than suing if they don't pay up. Do you know if they have the wherewithal to pay? There's not much point in doing anything if they're broke. Is it a limited liability company? If so, even wealthy principals probably won't get you paid if the company is broke. Most important, don't delay. If they are broke, you need to get your names on the creditors list and it pays to get paid before bankruptcy is confirmed! You might even consider negotiating as 50c/$ is better than nothing!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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You misunderstood. I've been talking to the guy daily for 2 years. Since the first of Jan, I've had no contact. I've sent emails, left voicemails, and talked to others at the company and asked them to have him contact me.... no response. I KNOW he's in the office, I KNOW he's getting my messages. He just all of a sudden started ignoring me. I think he's probably decided he's done with the project and doesn't want to settle up. I agree with your prior post that it's only the 12th, but I'm seeing him disappear, so I want to nip it at the bud now. As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it. So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention. I could put in a "Login Denied. Please contact..." kind of thing.
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
Do not damage the system. All contacts should be logged. Use Registered mail if possible. If he still own you money, then send a "dunning" asking to be paid according to the contract you both signed. If All fails, you can either let it go (couple of weeks with no pay is not fun, but cut your losses); or hire a lawyer ($$$ and time and frustration).
I'd rather be phishing!
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If he's that far away from you how do you KNOW he's in the office and getting your messages??
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Well I agree with the other commenters who are suggesting keeping the communication going. If you are in contact with the company but not the individual it might upset any thoughts of doing something to the software - surely your contract is with the company not an individual within it? Can't you ask one of the people you are in contact with to give him a "nudge" to return your emails? Most legal approaches would suggest at least 30 days before an action is taken unless you put something contrary to that in your Terms & Conditions.
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I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
zephaneas wrote:
$hitty
I don't know what that word is ... but I have an opinion about what your next move should be. Certified U.S. Postal letter with return address and signature required. End of discussion. Any other "move" or bicep stiffening transcendentalism on the part of you as the legal contractor would warrant legal action on his behalf. (I smell a subpoena ...)
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I'm not sure I'd agree with everything that's been posted so far: Removing something to the value of what you are owed, especially if you provided it, is almost certainly not illegal per se (that comes under a legal concept of "self-help"). There is no crime of theft as you are holding an item until it's paid for (under some definitions, the client is the thief). Normally, this should only be done after a notice period, but notifying the client may remove your ability to do this. Certainly you should give notice after (if) you've done it. Next, as you have been paid for 2 years, ownership of your product may be complicated. Under many consultancy contracts, you are only owed for the services supplied during the last period. A lot will depend on what the contract says. Clearly doing malicious damage could be, and probably is, a crime. Again interpretation is key here and if removing what you've not been paid for breaks something else it is probably not criminal, but subject to civil law. Another point is that removing your software doesn't necessarily settle your claim as, unless you can sell it to recover your loss, you have still suffered damage. Some notes of caution:
- Unless the contract dictates otherwise, this is subject to Canadian law, not American, so advice that applies to America is probably not much use. Canadian law has much more in common with British law from which it was derived
- Canadian courts tend to favour the "little guy" and if the client has the assets you might consider suing them here
- Canada has very strict border controls. Falling foul of the law (here or there) could see you prevented from entering Canada
- I'm not a lawyer and, although I've been around a bit, you should probably seek legal advice (germane to Canada) before doing anything drastic
As said by others, try contacting them, but I wouldn't threaten any action other than suing if they don't pay up. Do you know if they have the wherewithal to pay? There's not much point in doing anything if they're broke. Is it a limited liability company? If so, even wealthy principals probably won't get you paid if the company is broke. Most important, don't delay. If they are broke, you need to get your names on the creditors list and it pays to get paid before bankruptcy is confirmed! You might even consider negotiating as 50c/$ is better than nothing!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Removing something to the value of what you are owed, especially if you provided it, is almost certainly not illegal per se (that comes under a legal concept of "self-help")
The problem that I see with this is that if the OP wrote the software but the owner added the data, then it WOULD be taking something that isn't yours. It's one thing to take back the code that you wrote...but if you are damaging the data and/or stealing data...that just feels like something completely different, to me. Just because your code organized and setup the data doesn't make it yours.
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PhilLenoir wrote:
Removing something to the value of what you are owed, especially if you provided it, is almost certainly not illegal per se (that comes under a legal concept of "self-help")
The problem that I see with this is that if the OP wrote the software but the owner added the data, then it WOULD be taking something that isn't yours. It's one thing to take back the code that you wrote...but if you are damaging the data and/or stealing data...that just feels like something completely different, to me. Just because your code organized and setup the data doesn't make it yours.
True, but self-help is not actually limited to what you provided. Let's look at an analogy: I buy a car on credit and don't make my payments I filled the car with gas and the credit company repossesses the car. The value of the car, including the value of the gas may be more than the residual on the loan agreement. In such a case, if I don't pay up and get my car (and gas) released, the loan company can sell the car, take off the residual and reasonable costs and return the difference to me (the analogy might fall down a bit here as I've probably lost the gas). In any case, I could probably sue to get my gas back! ;P If the OP does seize the database he should offer to strip it of data and even return the data, in say CSV format, or return the thing intact after his damages have been addressed. A good example in Ontario, Canada, there's a law that demonstrates this principle. It's the "Roaming at Large Act". If you own an animal that strays on to my property and does some damage, I am entitled to seize the animal. After giving notice (2 days is required), if you have not compensated me for the damage (plus any additional expense), I can sell the animal, returning any difference to you (or sue for a shortfall). I know this because my neighbour's cattle demolished our shared fence and rampaged on my lot. I didn't seize them, but I did research the law and sent him a robust notice!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
