Need Advice On How To Handle This
-
PhilLenoir wrote:
Removing something to the value of what you are owed, especially if you provided it, is almost certainly not illegal per se (that comes under a legal concept of "self-help")
The problem that I see with this is that if the OP wrote the software but the owner added the data, then it WOULD be taking something that isn't yours. It's one thing to take back the code that you wrote...but if you are damaging the data and/or stealing data...that just feels like something completely different, to me. Just because your code organized and setup the data doesn't make it yours.
True, but self-help is not actually limited to what you provided. Let's look at an analogy: I buy a car on credit and don't make my payments I filled the car with gas and the credit company repossesses the car. The value of the car, including the value of the gas may be more than the residual on the loan agreement. In such a case, if I don't pay up and get my car (and gas) released, the loan company can sell the car, take off the residual and reasonable costs and return the difference to me (the analogy might fall down a bit here as I've probably lost the gas). In any case, I could probably sue to get my gas back! ;P If the OP does seize the database he should offer to strip it of data and even return the data, in say CSV format, or return the thing intact after his damages have been addressed. A good example in Ontario, Canada, there's a law that demonstrates this principle. It's the "Roaming at Large Act". If you own an animal that strays on to my property and does some damage, I am entitled to seize the animal. After giving notice (2 days is required), if you have not compensated me for the damage (plus any additional expense), I can sell the animal, returning any difference to you (or sue for a shortfall). I know this because my neighbour's cattle demolished our shared fence and rampaged on my lot. I didn't seize them, but I did research the law and sent him a robust notice!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
There are too many "holes" in this story for me to have any "deep thoughts:" 1. you have not disclosed up-front many details of the situation, but have revealed them only gradually as people here have responded to you. 2. still unknown: a. do you have a signed written contract: if you do, who with, person, or company ? If you do, what are the relevant terms of that contract ? b. what do the people you say you at the company when you call: do you ask them directly where your contact is, or why they are not responding to you. c. does the client have the source code ? d. was there any crisis involved here, any exchange, or event, that led to bad feelings or mis-trust between you and your client ? 3. ownership of code: if you have been paid for 24 months, then I would think legally the people who pay you do have a legal claim to ownership of some kind. but: what does the contract, if any, say ? good luck, Bill
«What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning» Werner Heisenberg
-
True, but self-help is not actually limited to what you provided. Let's look at an analogy: I buy a car on credit and don't make my payments I filled the car with gas and the credit company repossesses the car. The value of the car, including the value of the gas may be more than the residual on the loan agreement. In such a case, if I don't pay up and get my car (and gas) released, the loan company can sell the car, take off the residual and reasonable costs and return the difference to me (the analogy might fall down a bit here as I've probably lost the gas). In any case, I could probably sue to get my gas back! ;P If the OP does seize the database he should offer to strip it of data and even return the data, in say CSV format, or return the thing intact after his damages have been addressed. A good example in Ontario, Canada, there's a law that demonstrates this principle. It's the "Roaming at Large Act". If you own an animal that strays on to my property and does some damage, I am entitled to seize the animal. After giving notice (2 days is required), if you have not compensated me for the damage (plus any additional expense), I can sell the animal, returning any difference to you (or sue for a shortfall). I know this because my neighbour's cattle demolished our shared fence and rampaged on my lot. I didn't seize them, but I did research the law and sent him a robust notice!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
Interesting thoughts...although in your analogy a tank of gas is pretty negligible compared to the cost of the entire car. That isn't always the case with data. And especially if that data contained personal information of customers. How much is that worth? And that data is "owned" by the company but there is also a customer who has a vested interest in who has that data and what is done with it. That seems much more complicated to me. I guess I approached it more from the view point of...I was a customer and gave that guy my data trusting him to not sell it to low life marketers. Now that guy didn't pay his bills and his angry IT took my data. Is that guy going to sell my data? Does that guy have the needed security to ensure that it isn't also stolen from him? If I start getting robo calls, I'm going to be pissed. And all I can do is hope that karma catches up with him. Anyway...just my thoughts.
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
zephaneas wrote:
If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project.
Why are you guessing? Why not just phone, send an email, registered letter, etc and ask what's going on? If he still does not respond then make sure the application stops working properly until he does.
-
I've been getting paid for 2 years on a monthly basis. Also, we went from talking at least once a day, sometimes twice, to no contact since the first. The app is a WPF app run from a click-once off my server. I could remote in, uninstall it, then disable the click-once. That would get his attention.
You have almost nothing to gain by yanking the app without notice like that. Assuming you've had a good working relationship with this company for the last 2 years, there is a good chance that even if this project gets cut off you'll see more work from them in the future. If not, they might at least be willing to give a reference. How much would it cost you to leave the app up and running for a few months? Would the value of potential new work or a good reference be worth that? I would at least send an email stating your concern about the lack of contact and your plan to take the application down on a certain date (3/1?). If there is still no response I would recommend putting a splash screen on the application warning the users that the application will cease working on the date listed above. That gets their attention without causing them any real pain and/or panic. You don't want your first move to be the nuclear option.
-
I've been getting paid monthly for 2 years. He just stopped responding after the first. From a copyright perspective, at least here in California, I own the rights to the code. So since he defaulted I can probably take my product back. Plus I doubt he would try to sue me down here when he's in Canada.
Plus I doubt he would try to sue me down here when he's in Canada.
I'd be very careful about that. If you harm his business - and it can be construed as intentional, he might be very willing to take those steps. The border isn't really all that much of a deterrent.
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
Install a politely worded message into the application start-up stating that this application is not paid for and will stop working on Feb 1 if payment is not forthcoming, or an agreement is not reached by then. After Feb 1, an equally polite message stating that the application has become inactive due to ... Keep it polite, professional and factual.
-
"since the first" - ah, you mean "first of the month"? Good grief, it's only the 12th today! I've known people who have been nursing a new-year-hangover longer than that! :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
First, take a deep breath. It sucks to not get paid. But it happens. This represents roughly 1/24th (less than 5%) of the total billing. Be careful doing anything "destructive". US Laws are clear. You can be charged with TRIPLE DAMAGES. Also, when it comes down to shutting down software, that 5% number is important. Would you be able to justify to a Jury that you took 100% of his business down, for 5% backpay, well within the 30 days allotted to most companies to pay a bill? Breathe. Determine what YOU want to do next. (Do you LOVE this project so much, that you would take stock, or defer your salary in some way to help him make it through a tight time? Are you ready to move on anyways?) Forget about this guy, and what he has done. You can't change it anyways. Think about who you want to be. Be that person. Move on. It is business. It is nothing personal, don't take it personally. I have a client who owes me a small chunk (about half of a month), and closed their doors. Similar story. I just refocused on other clients, and did not think about it until I responded to this. You know what? I am making more with the other clients... Would I do ONE THING to ruin my name, reputation, or their defunct company? NOT on your life. Bad Karma. It is not even worth hiring a lawyer to go after. ($5,000 - $10,000 retainer, lawyer gets 33%, etc. etc.). There is just too much work out there to worry about the idiot who wont pay or can't pay.
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
DUDE --> GET A LAWYER… GET A LAWYER… GET A LAWYER… GET A LAWYER… GET A LAWYER!!!!! Do you actually "own" that code? What's in the contract? How does CA's law play into this? Can the "code" be considered abandoned? Where do the servers operate... US or Canada; how do those local laws effect this situation? Can some legal precedent set in a local court be harmful/helpful? Could disabling that software be considered a move to hold it for ransom? I'm basically trying to say the situation is complex and should require legal research. Do you have that kind of legal skill? Even if you do, are you willing to take on that kind of professional (even personal) risk? Hire a lawyer skilled in corporate and international law. Take his/her advice. They might even say that it's not possible to "win" or it's not worth the financial cost. Don't let this situation become self-destructive. If the lawyer says you can "win" then let the lawyer exact your revenge... you just sit back and smile.
- great coders make code look easy - When humans are doing things computers could be doing instead, the computers get together late at night and laugh at us. - ¿Neal Ford?
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
I am not familiar with the California's law and how the Canada's law can apply to US, but I guess is better to send two e-mails per week, warning that no payment was made and thus the access to the application will be limited. It's best to consult with a lawyer what timeframe you must give to the company and what complications you may have and how many notices you must send. After a month, consider limiting the access to the app functionalites according to your notice letters. It's important to consult with a lawyer who has experience in the IT area (there are many lawyers but few specialize in IT, please take that into consideration) and has experience in International law (I believe that is the term in English).
-
I am not familiar with the California's law and how the Canada's law can apply to US, but I guess is better to send two e-mails per week, warning that no payment was made and thus the access to the application will be limited. It's best to consult with a lawyer what timeframe you must give to the company and what complications you may have and how many notices you must send. After a month, consider limiting the access to the app functionalites according to your notice letters. It's important to consult with a lawyer who has experience in the IT area (there are many lawyers but few specialize in IT, please take that into consideration) and has experience in International law (I believe that is the term in English).
I forgot - please don't damage the code. Limiting access is one thing but damage usually according all countries' laws is criminal. Preserve the code-base!
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
What I do with customers who don't renew support contracts is lock them out so if they install an upgrade from my site without authority it puts their system in demo mode. I have a 'status check' page that enables them to check first so this is only a surprise if they don't check first In your case It's annoying, but firstly do your best to contact them, and if you get no-where after a month then change your program to a demo version until its resolved. Be as professional as possible It might not be what you want to hear but if they point blank refuse to pay what they owe, just write it off and move on as its only been a few weeks, as legal action is expensive, time consuming and will do your head in, but under no circumstances do anything that can be misconstrued as intentionally damaging to their system, because presumably as its your software, where are any existing customers going to get upgrades and fixes from? Good Luck Bob
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
There are a several items to consider: 1. This is January, the period when bank holidays interupt payments. 2. Staff holidays may result in clerical errors where batch tallys do not match and work must be redone to ensure accounts payable goes through. I got caught out by this on my US pension. 3. You may be subject to excise payments to IRS on income received from international sources. Might I recommend contacting a good attorney? Take no action until you know all the facts.
-
Do NOT do any damage to the system - even though you wrote it and they didn't pay you this would still be considered a serious matter. (Think law enforcement serious). IMHO, better to write a letter asking what the status is of the project and payment, and send it to the company by registered post. If it is a large company it is likely that the payment just fell between the gaps in the procurement process... Then - wait a couple of weeks and if you don't hear back better call Saul.
Duncan Edwards Jones wrote:
if you don't hear back better call Saul
Don't you mean Guido, from "Accounting"?
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
-
You misunderstood. I've been talking to the guy daily for 2 years. Since the first of Jan, I've had no contact. I've sent emails, left voicemails, and talked to others at the company and asked them to have him contact me.... no response. I KNOW he's in the office, I KNOW he's getting my messages. He just all of a sudden started ignoring me. I think he's probably decided he's done with the project and doesn't want to settle up. I agree with your prior post that it's only the 12th, but I'm seeing him disappear, so I want to nip it at the bud now. As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it. So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention. I could put in a "Login Denied. Please contact..." kind of thing.
There are legal procedures that have to be followed to repossess stuff. Generally it involves sending a certified letter giving 30 days official notice to "pay or quit", or something similar. You obviously don't know what those procedures are, which means you need to talk to a lawyer before you do something that might land you in jail.
-
I've been getting paid monthly for 2 years. He just stopped responding after the first. From a copyright perspective, at least here in California, I own the rights to the code. So since he defaulted I can probably take my product back. Plus I doubt he would try to sue me down here when he's in Canada.
zephaneas wrote:
I own the rights to the code.
Which means you can use the code. However what you said was... "I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once" And that isn't code usage. And unless you have contract that specifically allows you to do that on non-payment then it is very unlikely that you have the right to do that. Matter of fact, if you do not in fact have a right to do that, then, far as I know, then per the laws of the US doing that can be prosecuted as a criminal case where you are the criminal. Criminal cases, unlike civil cases, are at the discretion of the state and can hinge on nothing more that whether they have the jurisdiction and can prove it.
-
You misunderstood. I've been talking to the guy daily for 2 years. Since the first of Jan, I've had no contact. I've sent emails, left voicemails, and talked to others at the company and asked them to have him contact me.... no response. I KNOW he's in the office, I KNOW he's getting my messages. He just all of a sudden started ignoring me. I think he's probably decided he's done with the project and doesn't want to settle up. I agree with your prior post that it's only the 12th, but I'm seeing him disappear, so I want to nip it at the bud now. As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it. So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention. I could put in a "Login Denied. Please contact..." kind of thing.
zephaneas wrote:
As far a legal, at least here in CA, when you're hired as an independent, YOU own the code. I typically hand over ownership once the project is done and they accept it.... So for now, it's within my rights to deny them the use of the app. I don't really want to, but it would get his attention.
Do NOT do that. You are COMPLETELY wrong. The legal analogy is as follows. If someone agrees to buy your book and does not pay then you have the right to sell the book to someone else. You do NOT have the right to break into their house and take it back. And the US has specific laws about doing just that which make it a federal crime to do so. Your copyright only extends to the code itself. Your copy on your computer. Any other access depends on exactly who 'owns' the computer one which the application is running. And 'own' really is a key term here. For example a cloud device for which the other person is paying the bill is unlikely be 'owned' by you even if you have access. The only safe ownership in this case is if you own the server yourself (the hardware belongs to you) or all of the contracts for hosting/cloud are in your name and only your name. And even that can depend on contracts between you and them. Repeating this again - stopping the server can result in CRIMINAL federal charges against you. Even if you are sure that you own the server then I suggest the following 1. Talk to a lawyer with experience in software law. 2. Insure that you can prove that you tried to contact the person. (Ask the lawyer but at least a registered letter.)
-
I'm in California and I've been working on a project for a company in Canada for 2 years. I've had no contact with my client since the first. If I had to guess, I'd have to say he's decided to cancel the project. It's $hitty way to do it, but it's his choice. Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid. [UPDATE] Problem is, neither I nor the other guy on project have been paid since the first. I'm considering remoting and removing the DB and click-once. I'm open to how you would deal with this.
The dude is on holiday. Tread carefully.
