Hurray US Troops.
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The problem that Saddam Hussain has with is army is that it is too depleted after the Gulf war I, and could not obviously be re-built because of sanctions. All he could do till now was to fire two missiles. He does not even seem to have any airforce. It is obvious that pride, honour and trust does not make up for any of these. Like all the other cases, courage, pride and honor is not expressed when you walk right in front of a superior enemy. It is in being alive first and IMO, fight their battles only at the places where they have an edge. I think the Iraqi defense will be more on the lines of a guerilla warfare - with suprise attacks on ground troops etc. But, they do not have the weapon systems to sustain any kind of defence. If Iraq had the half the military capacity as US, the same amount of trust, honor and especially trust would not have been there. There would have been lot more questions by the political opposition and the general public. The same would have been true, if Saddam Hussain was the president of Mexico - because the physical proximity would have made any president think twice. This is a war against an almost weaponless opponent, too far away from home to affect the military or the population in any significant way. There is nothing to be demoralized about. All the factors that you said comes into picture, when the casualties become large and the military gets stretched. Saddam seems to enjoy support from his army; otherwise they would have already upstaged him in this moment of crisis. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Good points. I agree. I hope we could end this with minimal casualities on both sides, and give Iraq back to the people, to establish a government of their choosing. I understand not everyone in the world is ready for democracy, and I believe we will not force that upon them, however they have a right to not be under corrupt officials out lining their pockets. (iraqi republican guard and company implied here) - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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The problem that Saddam Hussain has with is army is that it is too depleted after the Gulf war I, and could not obviously be re-built because of sanctions. All he could do till now was to fire two missiles. He does not even seem to have any airforce. It is obvious that pride, honour and trust does not make up for any of these. Like all the other cases, courage, pride and honor is not expressed when you walk right in front of a superior enemy. It is in being alive first and IMO, fight their battles only at the places where they have an edge. I think the Iraqi defense will be more on the lines of a guerilla warfare - with suprise attacks on ground troops etc. But, they do not have the weapon systems to sustain any kind of defence. If Iraq had the half the military capacity as US, the same amount of trust, honor and especially trust would not have been there. There would have been lot more questions by the political opposition and the general public. The same would have been true, if Saddam Hussain was the president of Mexico - because the physical proximity would have made any president think twice. This is a war against an almost weaponless opponent, too far away from home to affect the military or the population in any significant way. There is nothing to be demoralized about. All the factors that you said comes into picture, when the casualties become large and the military gets stretched. Saddam seems to enjoy support from his army; otherwise they would have already upstaged him in this moment of crisis. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: Saddam seems to enjoy support from his army; otherwise they would have already upstaged him in this moment of crisis Interesting point. The question is why? The army knows that they will be defeated for sure. Unlike OBL this guy doesnot use Religion to influence them.
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Thomas George wrote: Saddam seems to enjoy support from his army; otherwise they would have already upstaged him in this moment of crisis Interesting point. The question is why? The army knows that they will be defeated for sure. Unlike OBL this guy doesnot use Religion to influence them.
The problems that I see 1. US supports Israel. Israel gets the highest aid from US. This makes US ineligible to be a mediator in the Palestine issue. By not relinquishing that role to some other party who can be seen by the Arab world as neutral, US gets little goodwill. 2. Previous support of dictators and human rights violators; and no sense of regret for these actions expressed to the people of those countries by any US administration. To sum up, they may see Saddam as one of their own (even if he is a nightmare), where as US is seen as someone who might sell them out to another dictator, if that is the best strategic option for US to control the region. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
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I'm here to voice my support of the US troops doing the right thing in Iraq. You have my support and God Bless America. Go kick some booty, and liberate Iraq for the benefit of its poor citizens who have long suffered under Saddam. This should have been done long ago, but unfortunatly Clinton had no backbone and too many Monika problems. Thank God George Bush is taking us in the right and moral path. Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq.
And Martin is back. [quote] Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq. [/quote] Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election, and I have no doubt their parties will take a generation to recover. Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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When you are a super power, why do you NEED regime A to undermine regime B? Just something that I never understood. :-D My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
Thomas George wrote: Just something that I never understood. From reading your posts there is a LOT you don't understand. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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:-D If people just take the efforts of all countries for what it is - effective control of the region, and making some money selling weapons and think about the consequences later - everything gets explained. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers
And if the universe was static you wouldn't need Einstien. Richard PS: And many thought it was - and some still do. In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Presidency is the way Kennedy acted during the Cuban Missiles crisis. If you don't know what I am talking then watch the "Thirteen Days" movie. :rose: Follow live World Cup Cricket scores here[^]
What is Cricket?[^] -
And Martin is back. [quote] Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq. [/quote] Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election, and I have no doubt their parties will take a generation to recover. Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Looks to me like you leaders have the balls and the rest of you have gave them up. One can expect this from Australia who generally have the gumption of a platypus but not from the UK Lion. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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John Carson wrote: Domestically, the US record is generally excellent (in common with other Western nations). I am not sure that Iraq is a "hell of a lot worse" than Turkey. might i suggest you view the amnesty international website? Now we have established that the US does in fact have a better human rights record and that they do complain loudly when required, its also important to note that they do also work quietly when the situation calls for it, one deals with ones friends and helps them sort out their problems in a different manner to how one sorts out someone less than friendly. by the way, I love a good argument :)
bryce wrote: might i suggest you view the amnesty international website? I don't know if you had something specific in mind. I went to the website and found that the lead article was "Iraq: military action could trigger civilian and human rights catastrophe" Two stories below it was: "Turkey: End sexual torture against women in custody!" A little more digging found lots of articles on Turkish human rights violations. The following article from Human Rights Watch may be of interest: Turkey and the Kurds[^] Iraq probably is worse than Turkey. But Turkey is still shockingly bad. It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein. bryce wrote: Now we have established that the US does in fact have a better human rights record and that they do complain loudly when required, its also important to note that they do also work quietly when the situation calls for it, one deals with ones friends and helps them sort out their problems in a different manner to how one sorts out someone less than friendly. I find these claims bizarre. We have not established that "they do complain loudly when required". The US has no consistent record of defending human rights in foreign countries and there are plenty of examples of it lending its support in the opposite direction --- for example, Pol Pot and Iraq in the 80s, Turkey now. The fact that the US even has "friends" that torture and murder speaks volumes. John Carson
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I'm here to voice my support of the US troops doing the right thing in Iraq. You have my support and God Bless America. Go kick some booty, and liberate Iraq for the benefit of its poor citizens who have long suffered under Saddam. This should have been done long ago, but unfortunatly Clinton had no backbone and too many Monika problems. Thank God George Bush is taking us in the right and moral path. Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq.
You're not alone, Martin. I second that.
heinz r. vahlbruch
c++ & c# programmer from germanyIf IntelliSense doesn't have it, it ain't worth calling - Anonymous
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bryce wrote: might i suggest you view the amnesty international website? I don't know if you had something specific in mind. I went to the website and found that the lead article was "Iraq: military action could trigger civilian and human rights catastrophe" Two stories below it was: "Turkey: End sexual torture against women in custody!" A little more digging found lots of articles on Turkish human rights violations. The following article from Human Rights Watch may be of interest: Turkey and the Kurds[^] Iraq probably is worse than Turkey. But Turkey is still shockingly bad. It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein. bryce wrote: Now we have established that the US does in fact have a better human rights record and that they do complain loudly when required, its also important to note that they do also work quietly when the situation calls for it, one deals with ones friends and helps them sort out their problems in a different manner to how one sorts out someone less than friendly. I find these claims bizarre. We have not established that "they do complain loudly when required". The US has no consistent record of defending human rights in foreign countries and there are plenty of examples of it lending its support in the opposite direction --- for example, Pol Pot and Iraq in the 80s, Turkey now. The fact that the US even has "friends" that torture and murder speaks volumes. John Carson
John Carson wrote: Iraq probably is worse than Turkey. But Turkey is still shockingly bad. It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein. hey i didnt say that turkey wasnt bad, i said iraq was worse (and they are) face fatcs - iraq gassed how many people? John Carson wrote: It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein yer but thats an attempt to direct "blame" onto the US. when they had no part of it. It comes down to who would you trust, iraq or the US If you answer "iraq" then you're not worth talking to. But i'll wait for your answer Bryce
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Christian Graus wrote: Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Looks to me like you leaders have the balls and the rest of you have gave them up. One can expect this from Australia who generally have the gumption of a platypus but not from the UK Lion. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Congratulations, you're the stupidest person here. And you have some stiff competition. In other words, get stuffed. Just because I don't support the US starving a country half to death for 10 years, going in and killing the survivors and hoping the remainder will hold a parade because you're going to let them start eating again does not make me spineless, it makes me someone with principles. No, I don't think much of Saddam Hussein. But in this situation, the USA is not much better, and our leaders are just too scared of you to stand up for what is right. I almost wish I was French. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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And Martin is back. [quote] Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq. [/quote] Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election, and I have no doubt their parties will take a generation to recover. Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election I can't speak for your Prime Minister - but it would take a minor miracle for Blair to be ousted from power. There is now real opposition as the Conservatives are in turmoil and the Lib Dems are little too Pro-Europe for a lot of voters. Christian Graus wrote: Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, If we get a short conflict where Saddam is removed, then I doubt many people will care in six months time. As long as the war doesn't effect their standard of living then most people don't care. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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I'm here to voice my support of the US troops doing the right thing in Iraq. You have my support and God Bless America. Go kick some booty, and liberate Iraq for the benefit of its poor citizens who have long suffered under Saddam. This should have been done long ago, but unfortunatly Clinton had no backbone and too many Monika problems. Thank God George Bush is taking us in the right and moral path. Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq.
Perhaps the rest of the world should invade the US and free it's citizens from the propaganda machine they call Government. Please look past the spin doctors. Phil
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Christian Graus wrote: Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election I can't speak for your Prime Minister - but it would take a minor miracle for Blair to be ousted from power. There is now real opposition as the Conservatives are in turmoil and the Lib Dems are little too Pro-Europe for a lot of voters. Christian Graus wrote: Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, If we get a short conflict where Saddam is removed, then I doubt many people will care in six months time. As long as the war doesn't effect their standard of living then most people don't care. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
Michael P Butler wrote: As long as the war doesn't effect their standard of living then most people don't care. Sad, but true. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Congratulations, you're the stupidest person here. And you have some stiff competition. In other words, get stuffed. Just because I don't support the US starving a country half to death for 10 years, going in and killing the survivors and hoping the remainder will hold a parade because you're going to let them start eating again does not make me spineless, it makes me someone with principles. No, I don't think much of Saddam Hussein. But in this situation, the USA is not much better, and our leaders are just too scared of you to stand up for what is right. I almost wish I was French. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian, you are an idiot, officially the US/UN has NOT starved iraq at all, if iraq wanted food, medical supplies then these were freely available under the food for oil deal, and take a look at the leaders of the country and see how well they have faired by pillaging their own country. You are mistaking the evils of the leaders with the country itself. but i DO notice Christian, that iraq has been building the world's biggest mosque while the children's hospital not far away doesn't have enough supplies....and that iraq has been paying Turkey 1 million US a DAY to use their road to ship oil out via the northern route. You must have seen it christian, it was on 60 minues (or 20/20) a few sundays ago on Australian telly. Tell me Christian, how you can be happy that a regime that swore black and blue to not have weapons the UN had banned it from having (ranged missiles) is now using them against Kuwait? Will you post a retraction if /when the good guys find chemical/biological weapons during/after the war as they did after the last Gulf war? Bryce
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John Carson wrote: Iraq probably is worse than Turkey. But Turkey is still shockingly bad. It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein. hey i didnt say that turkey wasnt bad, i said iraq was worse (and they are) face fatcs - iraq gassed how many people? John Carson wrote: It is worth noting that the more than 1 million deaths that are blamed on Saddam Hussein mainly occurred during the period of the Iraq-Iran war when the US was backing Saddam Hussein yer but thats an attempt to direct "blame" onto the US. when they had no part of it. It comes down to who would you trust, iraq or the US If you answer "iraq" then you're not worth talking to. But i'll wait for your answer Bryce
bryce wrote: hey i didnt say that turkey wasnt bad, i said iraq was worse (and they are) face fatcs - iraq gassed how many people? And US corporations supplied the chemicals (along with companies from some other countries) and were permitted to do so by the US government. Moreover, the US government continued to support Iraq economically and militarily (with satelite intelligence) after the gas attacks. If your claim is simply that the US is currently opposed to the worst human rights violator in the world (or at least a worse violator than Turkey), then this hardly amounts to a consistent position in favour of human rights on the part of the US. bryce wrote: yer but thats an attempt to direct "blame" onto the US. when they had no part of it. Of course they had a part of it. See above. bryce wrote: It comes down to who would you trust, iraq or the US I don't know what the "it" is that you are referring to. I wouldn't trust either Iraq or the US if I had an alternative. Iraq is a totally dictatorial society so Saddam Hussein is free to lie. George Bush is less free to lie because he is more likely to have his lies exposed by domestic opponents (or simply honest people without a political motive). But both leaders lie. In any event, if I knew what "it" referred to, I may not agree with you that "it" comes down to who you trust. John Carson
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And Martin is back. [quote] Thank you Mr. Bush, and our allies the British and Aussies who are helping us with this effort. Tony Blair and John Howard, you are wonderful, and I thank you all for helping the US troops liberate Iraq. [/quote] Both Blair and Howard will lose the next election, and I have no doubt their parties will take a generation to recover. Neither the UK or Australia backs this war, it's our leaders who are spineless. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
Christian Graus wrote: And Martin is back. At least the guy is consistent.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.
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bryce wrote: hey i didnt say that turkey wasnt bad, i said iraq was worse (and they are) face fatcs - iraq gassed how many people? And US corporations supplied the chemicals (along with companies from some other countries) and were permitted to do so by the US government. Moreover, the US government continued to support Iraq economically and militarily (with satelite intelligence) after the gas attacks. If your claim is simply that the US is currently opposed to the worst human rights violator in the world (or at least a worse violator than Turkey), then this hardly amounts to a consistent position in favour of human rights on the part of the US. bryce wrote: yer but thats an attempt to direct "blame" onto the US. when they had no part of it. Of course they had a part of it. See above. bryce wrote: It comes down to who would you trust, iraq or the US I don't know what the "it" is that you are referring to. I wouldn't trust either Iraq or the US if I had an alternative. Iraq is a totally dictatorial society so Saddam Hussein is free to lie. George Bush is less free to lie because he is more likely to have his lies exposed by domestic opponents (or simply honest people without a political motive). But both leaders lie. In any event, if I knew what "it" referred to, I may not agree with you that "it" comes down to who you trust. John Carson
John Carson wrote: And US corporations supplied the chemicals (along with companies from some other countries) and were permitted to do so by the US government. Moreover, the US government continued to support Iraq economically and militarily (with satelite intelligence) after the gas attacks. ths US want the only country to supply that technology (see further on in this thread) would you therefore care to relect this in your post. Also, The us was supporting iraq at that time for a very good reason...do you rememebr what is it... I do not believe the US would have suported iraq's decision to gas the kurds nor do i think any right minded person woulf tkink they would support it, you seem to think otherwise. John Carson wrote: I don't know what the "it" is that you are referring to. I wouldn't trust either Iraq or the US if I had an alternative. Iraq is a totally dictatorial society so Saddam Hussein is free to lie. George Bush is less free to lie because he is more likely to have his lies exposed by domestic opponents (or simply honest people without a political motive). But both leaders lie. In any event, if I knew what "it" referred to, I may not agree with you that "it" comes down to who you trust. thats semantics and you know it. Now, i will say this, i do not wish to see turkey invloved in the kurdish areas of iraq, it would make for a very messy situation. Bryce
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Thomas George wrote: Just something that I never understood. From reading your posts there is a LOT you don't understand. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Would you care to explain? Or are you specializing in smart retorts? I made that statement because US always claims a high moral ground, which they clearly do not occupy. It is propaganda. The war is not because Saddam is bad; but because Saddam is not an ally. If he had been a "good" boy and had not attacked Kuwait, I have no doubt in my mind (kind of the same way Donald Rumsfeld feels about Saddam) that US would still be supplying weapons to Iraq against "evil" Iran. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers