Feeling Hot! Hot! Hot!
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I have no scientific experience but an often mentioned ballpark figure is 10 years and that is in Germany/Sweden so one would expect a somewhat better ratio in Hungary. I would get competing quotes - and maybe let Mrs. Wife do som harball Hungarian bargaining... :cool::cool::cool:
Life is too shor
When we get to the point of parting with some money, Mrs Wife will be in full control. She always is.
veni bibi saltavi
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
Nagy, I've had a geothermal HVAC system for over 12 years. Depending on your costs, I suspect that the pay-back time has been over estimated. I was in profit in under 10. These systems are extremely reliable and there are potentially more benefits than just economics. If your system uses forced air, in winter the air is warm, not hot. In summer the air is cool, not cold. This reduces issues of hot (cold) zones in the house and large temperature fluctuations. This makes it a very comfortable system. Normally the system should be set up to preheat your how water too(this might require installation of an insulated storage tank or a larger hot water tank to get the full benefit). I have quite an old compressor, there are now available multistage compressors that are a lot more efficient. hence my feeling that you pay-back should be quicker. My system cost me 35 - 40% of the heating energy and 30-35% for cooling, giving me a savings of over 60%. Cooling gives more savings than heating as your are pumping excess heat into cold water, not warm moist air as per normal air conditioning systems. Full disclosure: I also have an 8kW solar array, I'm a lifelong self-confessed eco-freak! (I drive a hybrid too).
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
we're in the process of building a house with group-loop heating / AC. there are some big tax credits for it, for us. we skipped the rooftop solar because of up-front cost, but it's something we'll do later if the money works out.
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From what I've seen of renewables, if the estimate is "it will pay for itself in 15 years" then once you figure in the riding cost of fuels, taxes on the fuels, etc., and factor in the annual cleaning of the solar panels to make them continue to work efficiently... ...it'll break down after three years, and cost twice as much to fix as the original installation, "assuming I can get the parts, Squire". Our local council fitted a wind turbine at the Waste Dump / Recycling Centre on the grounds that it would save a fortune in the long run. And took it away two years later as it saved pretty much sod-all and cost a fortune to maintain... :laugh:
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
Spot on! :thumbsup:
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
it pays for itself in around 15 years.
99.9% of anything you purchase, especially for your home should "pay for itself" withing 3-5 years, not 15.
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
A neighbor of mine had a system like that. The only problem came when a developer wanted to build in the area surrounding the neighborhood. My neighbor discovered that the aquifer level beneath his house would have lowered enough after the development that it would have rendered his system useless. Fortunately, this was symptomatic of other water problems with the development, and that helped prevent it.
Software Zen:
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
it pays for itself in around 15 years.
99.9% of anything you purchase, especially for your home should "pay for itself" withing 3-5 years, not 15.
Why? Purely from an investment standpoint, a certain 6.7% return is pretty damn good. It could be that power is cheaper in Hungary compared to installation cost, but 15 years is very conservative in my experience. If you are planning to sell within the 5 year horizon, you might not get the full value, although it should add to the selling price of the home. Many things we buy are effectively for consumption and have no payback per se. Even something like a geothermal installation might also improve comfort. and getting a return is a bonus, so the statement is questionable.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Why? Purely from an investment standpoint, a certain 6.7% return is pretty damn good. It could be that power is cheaper in Hungary compared to installation cost, but 15 years is very conservative in my experience. If you are planning to sell within the 5 year horizon, you might not get the full value, although it should add to the selling price of the home. Many things we buy are effectively for consumption and have no payback per se. Even something like a geothermal installation might also improve comfort. and getting a return is a bonus, so the statement is questionable.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
I personally don't know many people who have been in there home for more than 15 years. Getting a return on your investment in 15 years is totally absurd to me for a heating/cooling system.
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A neighbor of mine had a system like that. The only problem came when a developer wanted to build in the area surrounding the neighborhood. My neighbor discovered that the aquifer level beneath his house would have lowered enough after the development that it would have rendered his system useless. Fortunately, this was symptomatic of other water problems with the development, and that helped prevent it.
Software Zen:
delete this;Ground source loops do not rely on aquifers, Only a system that actually pumps water (open loop) relies on such (they also might use a deep well, pond or river for an open loop.) Ground source, vertical or horizontal, loops rely on heat transfer to the soil. The presence of water (wet soils) might improve energy transfer, but they probably reduce thermal inertia too, so unless the water is mobile and allows convection, the presence of water might actually be a bad thing. In any case it simply means an adjustment in the size of the loop.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I personally don't know many people who have been in there home for more than 15 years. Getting a return on your investment in 15 years is totally absurd to me for a heating/cooling system.
Who said you need to be there for 15 years? Any real improvement in a house is reflected in its selling price. Again, if you sell in less than 5, you might take a bath, deeper research and advice from real estate professionals would be required as the value of the home is unlikely to be raised by the original installation cost. You could use exactly the same argument against new windows, a new roof or almost any home improvement. Try selling a house with any major feature missing or in poor repair! You get a return on your investment in year 1. It's only a wise investment if the return and the residual value (in this case how much it increases the value of the house) is better than placing the investment elsewhere and/or you get some other perceived value.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Who said you need to be there for 15 years? Any real improvement in a house is reflected in its selling price. Again, if you sell in less than 5, you might take a bath, deeper research and advice from real estate professionals would be required as the value of the home is unlikely to be raised by the original installation cost. You could use exactly the same argument against new windows, a new roof or almost any home improvement. Try selling a house with any major feature missing or in poor repair! You get a return on your investment in year 1. It's only a wise investment if the return and the residual value (in this case how much it increases the value of the house) is better than placing the investment elsewhere and/or you get some other perceived value.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Any real improvement in a house is reflected in its selling price.
IMHO, not an entirely true statement.
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PhilLenoir wrote:
Any real improvement in a house is reflected in its selling price.
IMHO, not an entirely true statement.
So you're saying you think people would pay the same for a house with leaky, compromised windows than for the same house with new double glazing or one that costs 1500 a year to heat and cool than one that costs 500? If this is true in your real estate market, I suggest that it's not normal.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
I have an air-sourced heat pump for about 10 years and it is working fine. You just set the desired temperature and it turns itself on and off to maintain that. I have heard that if you have a ground source version the ground side loop needs to be away from buildings as it can cause freezing (and therefore expansion) of the soil.
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
I put a solar system[^] on my house. July of this year will be 5 years since it was installed. I would suggest that if you do this, do it less because its a good investment and more because you want to do it. A few things to consider. * Even with a 15 year payback, what is the life of the equipment. (will it need to be replaced in 16 years? * Salespeople are great liars. If they claim it'll do something, take 10% off the claim and see if its still worthwhile. My numbers vs. claim are about 9% less * Solar panels loose efficiency every year they are on the roof, so they will have much less capacity after 15 years. Good luck. I'm happy with my system, but I never purchased it as an investment. I consider it tithing to my kid's future health! Hogan
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
it pays for itself in around 15 years.
99.9% of anything you purchase, especially for your home should "pay for itself" withing 3-5 years, not 15.
If you plan on retiring in that location, than a 15 year payoff might be bearable. You can probably assume some inflation on energy prices that reduces the payoff window. As you switch from salary to pension, you're monthly expenses could be quite low. My uncle has had a system like this for about 20 years and loves it. His system required drilling two well shafts a few hundred feet deep. (vertical pipes vs. horizontal pipes) On a very hot summer period (multiple daily highs over 100F), It managed to keep the house at 80F during the peak heat, and was able to cool to the target 78F overnight. The integrated hot water tank was scalding hot during this time.
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I put a solar system[^] on my house. July of this year will be 5 years since it was installed. I would suggest that if you do this, do it less because its a good investment and more because you want to do it. A few things to consider. * Even with a 15 year payback, what is the life of the equipment. (will it need to be replaced in 16 years? * Salespeople are great liars. If they claim it'll do something, take 10% off the claim and see if its still worthwhile. My numbers vs. claim are about 9% less * Solar panels loose efficiency every year they are on the roof, so they will have much less capacity after 15 years. Good luck. I'm happy with my system, but I never purchased it as an investment. I consider it tithing to my kid's future health! Hogan
That all depends where you are and what the deal is. I know Germany has strong incentives, but I have no idea about Hungary and Nagy is in a better situation to investigate that. Having said that, he was simply asking about ground source heat pumps! Good for you on the solar. I disagree with you "much less capacity". There are actually 3 different solar PV technologies and degradation does vary between the technologies and the manufacturing quality, but modern panels are typically around 1% residual reduction per year (residual, as opposed to straight line), so 15 years should see a drop of less than 15% (I guess it depends on your definition of "much"!) For my own system, my 8kW array including microinverters cost about 65k including 13% tax. My wife and I put this through our business, so claimed the tax back. Our income is about 8k pa, so better than 8 year pay back. the panels have an expected minimum life of 25 years, the inverters have 15 year warranties and my contract for supply if 20 years. I may be green, but the "green stuff" really helped make the decision easy!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
I have a closed loop heat pump system. It was expensive. The cost of the drilling for loops was covered by a grant but would have cost 12-13 grand. The system with out duct work may have cost 6-7 thousand, with duct work 20 grand +. That was with me doing a lot of the work. Then you need an engineer to size the system for your house. they do a heat loss analysis. I live in a dome that is super insulated. The other issue is if the temp is in the near 0 all the time the efficiently drops and makes the system works harder. I am very happy with the system. It cost me $150 dollars this past February.
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So you're saying you think people would pay the same for a house with leaky, compromised windows than for the same house with new double glazing or one that costs 1500 a year to heat and cool than one that costs 500? If this is true in your real estate market, I suggest that it's not normal.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
Not the same, but you can't expect your investments to be fully amortised through higher sales prizes! I can tell you from first hand experience, as I'm currently selling my house. As matters are, getting back more than 50% of my investments from the past two years seems highly unlikely. (and that's before fees and taxes, which are raised due to the potentially higher sell price) At the very least, by asking for a higher sell price you're excluding potential buyers simply because they can't afford it, no matter how much they would be saving in the long run (e. g. due to geothermal heating). Even for those taking a look, whatever you invested money in may not have been to their liking, or they might have been able to get a better deal for doing the same. Therefore it will not have the same value for them as it has for you.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Not! Not! Not! We're looking at replacing the heating system in Hungary with a ground source heat pump. The system works by pumping cold water through the ground where it heats up, then a heat exchange in the house provides hot water and/or central heating. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well. As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank. Net running cost should then be in the range of low to little. But then there's the cost of putting the system. Put this way, the latest quote I have received would mean that it pays for itself in around 15 years. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this or any other of the new fangled renewables.
veni bibi saltavi
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
ground source heat pump
Our pump was replaced recently, even though I'm not that experienced in the area I had some questions.
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
. In the summer this can be reversed to cool the house down as well.
I wanted this!!! But it din't happen because of three things: 1. The salesman for the new pump an water boiler said it would lower the temperature by a feew degrees maximum, he didn't think it would be musch use. 2. The need to redo ALL of the pipings and radiators in the house. The pipes needs to be isolated, otherwise you'll get moisture on them and evetually mold. Our house is built 1951 and all the pipings are built into the floor and walls, if they hadn't been built into the floors and walls they could have insulated the pipes running along the walls/floors. 3. The cost would have been SEK 25.000 per radiator (~3000 USD), with a lot of radiators the amount of money was too high.
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
As we have a large south facing roof, we should be able to power the whole thing from solar a PV bank.
The exess heat can also be used to heat up the ground during the summer. We have a drilled hole into the bedrock where we get the heat from, but we also live close to the Baltic sea (6-7 kilometers). In our case it means that we have a lot of ground water flowing towards the sea, so if we heat it up we'll only end up putting heat into the baltic sea. If the ground water had been more stagnant we could have been getting the heat back during winter. In the end we didn't get solar panels, but when we decide to do it everything is prepared for it (it would then only generate heat the water boiler during summer). Another advice from a friends friend ( :rolleyes: ) who sells heating equpment mainly to large corperates was to go for the most basic model without all the bells and whistles. Control the heating system from your mobile? A big no... Aside from being a cool feature how are you going to use it? Heat up the house when going from work? Our house is made from stone, no matter how much we crank the heat up it will take a day before we notice it. If it's a vacation home the it might be a good idea though. The more advanced, the more expensive it will get when replacing/reapiring something.
