Why I think AV software should be free
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Kevin Marois wrote:
There's always someone smarter. And any attempt to protect can always be overcome.
But the same applies to the anti-virus products. From the end-user POV the OS should be secure and its the OS supplier who should bear the burden of making it so. The current 3rd party arrangement seems very flawed.
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
Do you make your software virus proof?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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Do you make your software virus proof?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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To the best of my ability - but most of the responsibility lies with the OS and browser since they're doing the low level stuff.
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
And someone better will defeat it... But that's your fault, right? By your logic, YOU should have put more time and expense into defeating all viruses that might attach your software. If we as developers tried that, the cost of our apps would skyrocket and the app side would be exponentially huge, and it would never be done.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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And someone better will defeat it... But that's your fault, right? By your logic, YOU should have put more time and expense into defeating all viruses that might attach your software. If we as developers tried that, the cost of our apps would skyrocket and the app side would be exponentially huge, and it would never be done.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
If we as developers tried that, the cost of our apps would skyrocket and the app side would be exponentially huge, and it would never be done.
Which is why we rely on the OS and its API's to be secure. :rolleyes:
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
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Kevin Marois wrote:
it essentially was 3 pages of VB code that deleted whatever it could from the Windows folder and all subfolders under it.
Kevin Marois wrote:
No 'bug' allowed that.
You don't think an OS should protect against uninitiated code execution and file deletion?
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
So then where do you draw the line separating "uninitiated code execution and file deletion" from "legitimate code execution and file deletion?"
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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So then where do you draw the line separating "uninitiated code execution and file deletion" from "legitimate code execution and file deletion?"
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
That's the $64,000 question. Today Linux distros, OS X and Windows all have slightly different answers but all of them provide pretty good security. All are more secure today than they were 10 years ago or even last year.
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
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Kevin Marois wrote:
If we as developers tried that, the cost of our apps would skyrocket and the app side would be exponentially huge, and it would never be done.
Which is why we rely on the OS and its API's to be secure. :rolleyes:
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
"If we as developers" includes OS providers. They do have some level of protection in there, but they cant stop everything and if they tried the already over-priced Windows would never be purchased.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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That's the $64,000 question. Today Linux distros, OS X and Windows all have slightly different answers but all of them provide pretty good security. All are more secure today than they were 10 years ago or even last year.
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
This is the reason it's unreasonable to try to code around it. Who decides who can and cannot delete files?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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"If we as developers" includes OS providers. They do have some level of protection in there, but they cant stop everything and if they tried the already over-priced Windows would never be purchased.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
If we as developers" includes OS providers. They do have some level of protection in there, but they cant stop everything
Of course but you seem to be suggesting that only a rudimentary level of security is OK and we should rely on 3rd party anti-virus developers to do the hard stuff. If the AV folks can do it - why not the OS developers?
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
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This is the reason it's unreasonable to try to code around it. Who decides who can and cannot delete files?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
it's unreasonable to try to code around it.
:confused: Do you prefer the "Wild West" days of DOS where any attachment in an e-mail could wipe your HD? Just because it's difficult doesn't make it unreasonable.
Kevin Marois wrote:
Who decides who can and cannot delete files?
Notifying the user and asking permission / requiring a password is where they usually end up. Windows has things like User Account Control, Firewall and Drive Encryption. OS X has GateKeeper (App signing), Encryption and Firewall.
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
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Use Linux then... I use both, but definitely pay for AV on my Windows machines.
Albert Holguin wrote:
Use Linux then...
Because they never get pwned? Thing is, all systems have exploits, but I have to wonder if Linux may not actually be at a disadvantage here, given that (AFAIK) there's no reputable anti-virus for Linux you can rely on. Which means you totally rely on the end user.
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Kevin Marois wrote:
it essentially was 3 pages of VB code that deleted whatever it could from the Windows folder and all subfolders under it.
Kevin Marois wrote:
No 'bug' allowed that.
You don't think an OS should protect against uninitiated code execution and file deletion?
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
You don't think an OS should protect against uninitiated code execution and file deletion?
No! No, I don't. Unless you know how to implement mind reading capabilities and embed it into OS, anything you do regarding this 'issue' will be more of an annoyance then actual solution.
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And someone better will defeat it... But that's your fault, right? By your logic, YOU should have put more time and expense into defeating all viruses that might attach your software. If we as developers tried that, the cost of our apps would skyrocket and the app side would be exponentially huge, and it would never be done.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
By your logic, YOU should have put more time and expense into defeating all viruses that might attach your software
The answer to that is obviously no, but as a developer, I don't think it's unreasonable to be expected to at least try to mitigate potential issues when you design your apps. That's why, after all, threat modeling tools exist. They're not just for OS designers. It starts with not requiring the user to run as an admin, not saving passwords in plaintext--those sorts of things. You're not entirely absolved from any responsibility just because there's an anti-virus running that's trying to protect the user from himself.
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Use Linux then... I use both, but definitely pay for AV on my Windows machines.
Albert Holguin wrote:
Use Linux then...
Are you implying that Linux is bug/virus free? :laugh:
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This is the reason it's unreasonable to try to code around it. Who decides who can and cannot delete files?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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It's interesting that almost everyone asked why I think it should be free, so here's my thinking: Why do viruses exist? Because of bugs in the operating systems and applications that we do pay for. So, in effect, when I spend money on AV software, I'm paying someone else to "fix" the problems created by someone else. That's fine, but then it makes more sense to me that the companies who write the buggy OS's, browser, etc. should pay the AV software companies, not the end user. Now sure, if there's some advanced features that you might need, then I can see paying for that. But the basic "keep me protected from the bad guys and the buggy OS's" functionality, seems to me like that should be something free. Of course, with my thinking, companies like Microsoft would simply hide an "AV tax" to their software, haha. Or I could just use Microsoft Security Essentials, but I went down that route once and had some unpleasant experiences, don't recall exactly what. Might try it again on my laptop. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
Do you also expect fire or health insurance to be free?
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
You don't think an OS should protect against uninitiated code execution and file deletion?
No! No, I don't. Unless you know how to implement mind reading capabilities and embed it into OS, anything you do regarding this 'issue' will be more of an annoyance then actual solution.
Mladen Janković wrote:
No! No, I don't.
:wtf: You would prefer that an e-mail attachment or some script in a web page could (without your permission or knowledge) modify / delete files on your computer?
Contrary to popular belief, nobody owes you anything.
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Do you also expect fire or health insurance to be free?
Mladen Janković wrote:
Do you also expect fire or health insurance to be free?
Of course not, but keep in mind that the word "insurance" is misleading. It doesn't ensure that your house won't burn down or that you won't die. It is more of an "assurance", that you can replace damaged property or your spouse won't be financially crippled by your death. AV software isn't "insurance" or even "assurance." It's preventing (in a condom sort of way) problems with something that's originally flawed. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Why do viruses exist? Because of bugs in the operating systems and applications that we do pay for
Sometimes. Years ago I got ahold of the source code for a virus called the I Love You Virus[^] Aside from the silly email stuff, it essentially was 3 pages of VB code that deleted whatever it could from the Windows folder and all subfolders under it. No 'bug' allowed that. Some deviant came up with this and wrote it.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
No 'bug' allowed that. Some deviant came up with this and wrote it.
:thumbsup: That's a very good example and creates a strong point toward the debate. Wow, that sounds sarcastic when I typed it, but I really mean it.
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Mladen Janković wrote:
Do you also expect fire or health insurance to be free?
Of course not, but keep in mind that the word "insurance" is misleading. It doesn't ensure that your house won't burn down or that you won't die. It is more of an "assurance", that you can replace damaged property or your spouse won't be financially crippled by your death. AV software isn't "insurance" or even "assurance." It's preventing (in a condom sort of way) problems with something that's originally flawed. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
Fine! Fire and burglar alarms should be free.