Volkswagen 'Cheat Switch'
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I suspect no money found its way into the hands of the engineers. Only the VW executives would have gained. The engineers were probably just following orders.
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Keith Barrett wrote:
So that's at least five people who were involved who either didn't think about the ethical or commercial consequences of what they were doing, or were too scared to do anything. And presumably they all considered themselves to be 'Engineers'.
I wouldn't mind being one of them. There's nothing unethical in avoiding government standard and commercial consequences are all on management stuff which made the decision.
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I disagree. It was unethical. The ACM's code of ethics and professional standards says: 1.03. Approve software only if they have a well-founded belief that it is safe, meets specifications, passes appropriate tests, and does not diminish quality of life, diminish privacy or harm the environment. The ultimate effect of the work should be to the public good. What VW did drove a cart-and horses through that one.
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Keith Barrett wrote:
I'm disappointed that those involved at a technical level allowed this to go as far as it did
You're disappointed that engineers are also people?
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I suspect no money found its way into the hands of the engineers. Only the VW executives would have gained. The engineers were probably just following orders.
Keith Barrett wrote:
probably just following orders
and keep their jobs
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How can you know whether what you write is legal, unless you know all the applicable laws and bye-laws for for every country in the world? Globalisation has a downside where we as engineers cannot know everything and are very likely to be reliant on market experts to know the laws we have to comply with in their target geographies.
Yes but what we have here is something that is patently wrong by anyone's standards. The code was deliberately designed to cheat during the emissions testing. It's not a question of not knowing the local laws - they knew the law and deliberately flouted it.
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No - people make mistakes for sure. But for this to happen a whole gang of people had to collude in doing something which should have set all their inner alarm bells ringing.
I'm not talking about mistakes as this probably wasn't a mistake. I'm talking about the evil that men do (which lives on and on[^]). This is one of the lesser evils that probably filled the pockets of quite some people. And they would've gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids!
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Isn't the DPF cheating too, I mean if you measured the emissions as the DPF was regenerating it would be off the scale. I don't think people buy diesel cars because they are green and have low emissions, they buy them because fuel costs are lower. I just don't get it. The whole thing is a "storm in a teacup"
I don't think it's a storm in a teacup, as actual harm has been done. People have been duped into buying cars they might not otherwise have purchased (some people do care about the environment). People with respiratory problems have suffered from the increased NOX emissions, and investors in VW have lost a load of money. And probably VW will start announcing lay-offs soon due to the impact it will have on their sales.
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Isn't the DPF cheating too, I mean if you measured the emissions as the DPF was regenerating it would be off the scale. I don't think people buy diesel cars because they are green and have low emissions, they buy them because fuel costs are lower. I just don't get it. The whole thing is a "storm in a teacup"
I don't think this is just a storm in a teacup, as actual harm has been done. People have been duped into buying cars they might not have purchased otherwise (some people do care about the environment). People with respiratory problems have suffered from the increased NOX emissions. Investors in VW have lost a load of money. And soon VW will start lay-offs as their sales suffer.
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Something that really bothers me about the current Volkswagen scandal is that the engine management system 'cheat switch' didn't write itself. Assuming that Volkswagen followed a fairly traditional software development model: * someone wrote a specification * someone approved it * someone modified the code * someone reviewed the code * someone tested it So that's at least five people who were involved who either didn't think about the ethical or commercial consequences of what they were doing, or were too scared to do anything. And presumably they all considered themselves to be 'Engineers'. I know software engineers don't have the equivalent of a Hippocratic Oath, but I'm disappointed that those involved at a technical level allowed this to go as far as it did.
How naive ! You must not know the car industry very well : The "Volkswagen scandal" is only a scandal when viewed from outside of the car industry. Nobody working in the car industry thinks this is a scandal, since everybody is doing it - it is usual business. One example : fuel. Do you honestly believe fuel consumption figures given by a car manufacturers ? Have you already measured how much fuel you can put in your tank ? Do you believe the figures on the gas station are correct when you go and tank ? One subject, already three cheaters. BUT car industry is not the only one -> finance, pharma, real estate are other very interesting areas...
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Isn't the DPF cheating too, I mean if you measured the emissions as the DPF was regenerating it would be off the scale. I don't think people buy diesel cars because they are green and have low emissions, they buy them because fuel costs are lower. I just don't get it. The whole thing is a "storm in a teacup"
Display Name Taken wrote:
The whole thing is a "storm in a teacup"
Í totally agree, see also my post below. I do not get what all the fuss is about, it is pretty much like realizing suddenly that a cow produces milk.
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I don't think it's a storm in a teacup, as actual harm has been done. People have been duped into buying cars they might not otherwise have purchased (some people do care about the environment). People with respiratory problems have suffered from the increased NOX emissions, and investors in VW have lost a load of money. And probably VW will start announcing lay-offs soon due to the impact it will have on their sales.
People who care about the environment don't buy diesel cars do they? Do they even own a car at all, a hybrid would be their choice not a noisy smoky diesel. I would be willing to bet 99% of private new car owners don't care about emissions, other than for the tax incentives we get in the UK on lower emission cars.
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How naive ! You must not know the car industry very well : The "Volkswagen scandal" is only a scandal when viewed from outside of the car industry. Nobody working in the car industry thinks this is a scandal, since everybody is doing it - it is usual business. One example : fuel. Do you honestly believe fuel consumption figures given by a car manufacturers ? Have you already measured how much fuel you can put in your tank ? Do you believe the figures on the gas station are correct when you go and tank ? One subject, already three cheaters. BUT car industry is not the only one -> finance, pharma, real estate are other very interesting areas...
I agree completely, my car "should" get 75mpg I actually get around 50mpg. They are effectively lying about this as well, I bet "special software" is used to get the lower mpg figures too. The main reason the emissions fixing is an issue is because government revenue is affected.
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pkfox wrote:
I read that the software knew when the emissions were being tested HOW ?
Google that question and you will find the answer. My understanding is that when testing, the steering and use of accelerator pedal of the car match a certain pattern. The software looked for that pattern and when it saw the pattern it put the engine into a mode where it was less fuel efficient and worked at a hotter temperature reducing emissions - please pardon my less than scientific explanation
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Something that really bothers me about the current Volkswagen scandal is that the engine management system 'cheat switch' didn't write itself. Assuming that Volkswagen followed a fairly traditional software development model: * someone wrote a specification * someone approved it * someone modified the code * someone reviewed the code * someone tested it So that's at least five people who were involved who either didn't think about the ethical or commercial consequences of what they were doing, or were too scared to do anything. And presumably they all considered themselves to be 'Engineers'. I know software engineers don't have the equivalent of a Hippocratic Oath, but I'm disappointed that those involved at a technical level allowed this to go as far as it did.
Or it could be one person that modified it at the request of some manager, or it could be someone who did it without anyone's knowledge. But those five steps -- spec, approve, modify, review, test -- well, I think you assume too much in this world of agile software development. ;) More than likely, the requirements were outsourced to a consulting agency that was tasked to write that piece of corruption, and the consulting agency didn't really give a damn or, when asked "if in test mode, change the values" didn't realize how the code would be used / abused. Marc
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Something that really bothers me about the current Volkswagen scandal is that the engine management system 'cheat switch' didn't write itself. Assuming that Volkswagen followed a fairly traditional software development model: * someone wrote a specification * someone approved it * someone modified the code * someone reviewed the code * someone tested it So that's at least five people who were involved who either didn't think about the ethical or commercial consequences of what they were doing, or were too scared to do anything. And presumably they all considered themselves to be 'Engineers'. I know software engineers don't have the equivalent of a Hippocratic Oath, but I'm disappointed that those involved at a technical level allowed this to go as far as it did.
I suspect the original code was done by engineers during R&D to see how "clean" they could make the engine and the impact of that. When management saw the reports, they freaked out how much gas mileage was affected and then started the process you listed.
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We have mandatory checkups every two years. If you don't go to the checkups or if the car does not pass the tests then its license will be void and the next cop driving behind you will pull you over.
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Yes but what we have here is something that is patently wrong by anyone's standards. The code was deliberately designed to cheat during the emissions testing. It's not a question of not knowing the local laws - they knew the law and deliberately flouted it.
That's the point they would have known at a minimum that they were 'working around' the law, but certainly in some places (thinking UK here) the law is poorly worded. In the UK the test rules use terms like 'at the time of the test', while the term is meant to mean that the driver couldn't be prosecuted 10 months after the test if their emissions had crept up, some corporate lawyer type can use that clause to mean that what VW did is not illegal. Clearly morally incorrect, but legally okay, it should be caught by a 'no specific changes for the test / test being representative of normal running' type clause, but the diesel tests in the uk have been messed up pretty much since emissions test for diesel were introduced.
