Underpaid?
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis?
You are implying that they are paid enough; how do you know?
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
It may come as a surprise, but most people do not have the luxury to simply walk away and look for something else :laugh:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis?
You are implying that they are paid enough; how do you know?
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
It may come as a surprise, but most people do not have the luxury to simply walk away and look for something else :laugh:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
You are implying that they are paid enough; how do you know?
He's probably talking about the recent CP survey: http://www.codeproject.com/Surveys/1830/As-an-IT-professional-are-you-paid-enough.aspx[^]
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
You are implying that they are paid enough; how do you know?
He's probably talking about the recent CP survey: http://www.codeproject.com/Surveys/1830/As-an-IT-professional-are-you-paid-enough.aspx[^]
Cheers, विक्रम "We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread :doh:
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
I am fairly significantly underpaid compared to all of my colleagues in similar roles. I continue to work for this salary because I work for a charity that does excellent work, and I get to work with wonderful, dedicated people. Nobody works here for the money; we're all here because we want to do good. Yeah, I'm underpaid, but I get by and I go home happy.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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So, are you subject to delusions of grandeur or just a prophet on daily basis?
it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet.
Nothing in that line - I'm simply nuts :-)
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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It occurred to me a few years ago that the salary surveys peppered throughout the year are significantly skewed high. I certainly wasn't going to participate in a survey when I knew that my salary was going to be half of the bottom end reported. But if folks like me participated, the survey would be more accurate. Things are better now, but I still haven't entered the "range" yet. Then again, one of my colleagues has taken to calling me "The Magic Man", so it ain't all bad. I just wish my wand could control the amount of money flowing into my bank account without getting me arrested. ;P
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Money isn't everything.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
No, money isn't everything, but it's not nothing either. You can't buy happiness but money can make misery a HELL of a lot more comfortable.
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
LOL, What you mean to say is more than half FEEL they are underpaid. Here is the problem. Where do you work? What value do you add? IMO, you are only underpaid if you are outperforming AND you make less than you EASILY could for less performance! I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them to some extent. If I paid them EXACTLY what they are worth to my clients, I would go out of business. But I also pay them for 3-5 weeks of vacation/time off, for which NO CLIENT pays. Then I pay for Equipment, Tools, Licenses. And I give them 16GB, Dual SSD, Dual Monitor BEAST computers. This stuff aint cheap! But as you read in this thread. Some people realize that if you work for a Volunteer organization, you cant get paid way above industry norms, and if you are on a leading edge team, getting great contracts... You should not be hurting for money. But here to, the key thing is that EXPECTATIONS should be different. You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you. This reminds me of an Oprah episode my wife watched. My wife comes to me to tell me that she is worth > $100,000.00/yr for being a stay at home mom, and that it was the hardest job out there because you are always on call, work overtime. It's 24/7 baby! I quickly explained to her 3 things: 1) It is the SINGLE PARENT that has the hardest job (and I might be willing to prove it to you if you keep watching Oprah, LOL) 2) That number is bogus, because BEING on-call <> Working 24/7 3) It is ONLY worth that much if you can get someone to PAY YOU THAT MUCH to do it! While there might be some Nanny for Angelina who can charge that. Most can't. Are stay at home moms underpaid? Or do they have hard jobs? I think, in tech, our jobs are harder than most people realize. I think we are often under appreciated. And finally, I think we get what we deserve in the long run! And we ALWAYS get what we value. Because our actions are dictated by our values!
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Surely it must be true that half of us are underpaid, just on a statistical basis. As for thinking you're underpaid...I remember being a very smart new hire. I remember wondering why some guys with 5 or 10 years of experience earned so much more than I did when I was clearly smarter than they were, knew more stuff, had a better technical education, etc. But those guys had something I didn't have, and something I couldn't even imagine; experience. You can't evaluate experience until you have it. It's the reason you're worth more after a few years. People don't get smarter as they get older, but they do get more experience. The learn how to work with the team. They memorize the intricacies of a code base, they learn how not to fail. Smart new devs need to find somebody they trust and take their word for it, experience does matter.
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LOL, What you mean to say is more than half FEEL they are underpaid. Here is the problem. Where do you work? What value do you add? IMO, you are only underpaid if you are outperforming AND you make less than you EASILY could for less performance! I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them to some extent. If I paid them EXACTLY what they are worth to my clients, I would go out of business. But I also pay them for 3-5 weeks of vacation/time off, for which NO CLIENT pays. Then I pay for Equipment, Tools, Licenses. And I give them 16GB, Dual SSD, Dual Monitor BEAST computers. This stuff aint cheap! But as you read in this thread. Some people realize that if you work for a Volunteer organization, you cant get paid way above industry norms, and if you are on a leading edge team, getting great contracts... You should not be hurting for money. But here to, the key thing is that EXPECTATIONS should be different. You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you. This reminds me of an Oprah episode my wife watched. My wife comes to me to tell me that she is worth > $100,000.00/yr for being a stay at home mom, and that it was the hardest job out there because you are always on call, work overtime. It's 24/7 baby! I quickly explained to her 3 things: 1) It is the SINGLE PARENT that has the hardest job (and I might be willing to prove it to you if you keep watching Oprah, LOL) 2) That number is bogus, because BEING on-call <> Working 24/7 3) It is ONLY worth that much if you can get someone to PAY YOU THAT MUCH to do it! While there might be some Nanny for Angelina who can charge that. Most can't. Are stay at home moms underpaid? Or do they have hard jobs? I think, in tech, our jobs are harder than most people realize. I think we are often under appreciated. And finally, I think we get what we deserve in the long run! And we ALWAYS get what we value. Because our actions are dictated by our values!
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them to some extent
For a contract-based business, like it sounds yours is, this is absolutely valid. And you're not underpaying them, so much as not paying them for the parts of the business they don't have to dealwith for themselves.. benefits, business space, equipment, sales, etc.
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you.
True, but you are also only worth what they have to pay to get someone with your expertise, knowledge and experience. That's why some jobs are paid only minimum wage -- any employable person has sufficient skills to satisfy them.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Considering that getting older is inevitable, and there is now rampant and uncontrolled age discrimination (thanks to that product of an asshole delivery running Facebook) it is wise to get your money upfront, as in next paycheck. Nobody gives retirements anymore, and developers are making people into disposable assets, including themselves. You're going to become unemployable, you're not one of the Rothschilds. We're dooming ourselves to the future desired by the 1%.
Underpaid? Hell, unemployed.
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The bigger half of the community believes that they are underpaid... So, we are subject to paranoid schizophrenia or just disconnected from reality on daily basis? And on the other half - why you are in if money isn't that good (than others believe it is)?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Sometimes it requires looking at the company culture you signed on to. Nothing like the review I had once where they said I was being paid too much for what I was doing. I came back with, where is that my fault? I don't get to choose how much you pay me, nor do I get to choose what I work on. The company tended to pay better than most, mostly because they didn't know what they were doing (they were dragged kicking and screaming all the way into the computer age and overpaid big time for the consultants they initially used and thought they were getting a deal when they moved development in house).
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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No, money isn't everything, but it's not nothing either. You can't buy happiness but money can make misery a HELL of a lot more comfortable.
I agree with that, but if I have to choose whether to stay at current job, which is stable, I don't get any crap from any bosses, and am happy, or move to a higher paying job which might not be, I rather keep my current job.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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I think there is a relationship between how soon you have left school/university etc. and how much you think you are underpaid. I have certainly noticed the expectation of some individuals to be on high salaries from the start, without any actual experience...and rather than just prove they are a high performer, waste all their energy complaining all the time.
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
After travel expenses, my first job paid less than the dole. But after a year, I had the experience to be able to demand politely ask for a pay rise/promotion. Glad I was able to live with my family during that time otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford to do it.
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After travel expenses, my first job paid less than the dole. But after a year, I had the experience to be able to demand politely ask for a pay rise/promotion. Glad I was able to live with my family during that time otherwise I wouldn't have been able to afford to do it.
AndrewDavie wrote:
After travel expenses, my first job paid less than the dole.
That sounds a bit like the Youth Training Scheme the UK government had in the 80's! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_Training_Scheme[^]
Dave Find Me On:Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
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LOL, What you mean to say is more than half FEEL they are underpaid. Here is the problem. Where do you work? What value do you add? IMO, you are only underpaid if you are outperforming AND you make less than you EASILY could for less performance! I own a business, and have employees. Developers. I MUST under pay them to some extent. If I paid them EXACTLY what they are worth to my clients, I would go out of business. But I also pay them for 3-5 weeks of vacation/time off, for which NO CLIENT pays. Then I pay for Equipment, Tools, Licenses. And I give them 16GB, Dual SSD, Dual Monitor BEAST computers. This stuff aint cheap! But as you read in this thread. Some people realize that if you work for a Volunteer organization, you cant get paid way above industry norms, and if you are on a leading edge team, getting great contracts... You should not be hurting for money. But here to, the key thing is that EXPECTATIONS should be different. You are ONLY WORTH what you can get someone to pay you. This reminds me of an Oprah episode my wife watched. My wife comes to me to tell me that she is worth > $100,000.00/yr for being a stay at home mom, and that it was the hardest job out there because you are always on call, work overtime. It's 24/7 baby! I quickly explained to her 3 things: 1) It is the SINGLE PARENT that has the hardest job (and I might be willing to prove it to you if you keep watching Oprah, LOL) 2) That number is bogus, because BEING on-call <> Working 24/7 3) It is ONLY worth that much if you can get someone to PAY YOU THAT MUCH to do it! While there might be some Nanny for Angelina who can charge that. Most can't. Are stay at home moms underpaid? Or do they have hard jobs? I think, in tech, our jobs are harder than most people realize. I think we are often under appreciated. And finally, I think we get what we deserve in the long run! And we ALWAYS get what we value. Because our actions are dictated by our values!
If they want to treat it as a job, then if they think they aren't getting paid enough, then don't do the job! If enough women stop being mothers, then society will raise their wages - supply and demand. Currently there doesn't seem to be a particular shortage of new humans, so wages will be depressed.
