Interesting Article on the demise of StackOverflow as being useful for beginners
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Online communities... are difficult things! :omg: All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I can't really speak for all, in my quests to find answers I found StackOverFlow pretty much useless this caused me to find CP and all is well, questions got answered with no abuse. Can't say I am surprised though!
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I hadn't realized that it was ever intended for beginners. I'd always assumed that a misunderstanding of this was the source of much pain for the inept, lazy and inarticulate. Granted, the article you linked to showed some really poor behaviour in terms of questions being closed. However, the biggest contributor to poor content has always been in my opinion those whom are rep-whores or newbies. I've had precisely one poor experience with a high-rep user, perhaps I'm sheltered or have been rather fortunate. Admittedly, I've only asked 1 question. It's a site for grown-ups and I'm perfectly happy to see it offending the sensibilities of those who dont care to familiarize themselves with the expectations and culture of the site. Other places are where you go if you want to have a conversation or to feel warm-and-fuzzy. Stack-Overflow is where you go if you'd like a specific question answered. As a kid, mum always said "I'm not going to reward poor behaviour." Whining for something in the supermarket not only meant obtaining it was impossible, but also that chances of something next time were poor at best. Sure, holding everyone to such a standard is difficult if not impossible - is that a reason to not try though? I dont think it is.
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I've never liked SO. I've been downright attacked and insulted in response to perfectly acceptable questions. I agree 100% with the article.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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I hadn't realized that it was ever intended for beginners. I'd always assumed that a misunderstanding of this was the source of much pain for the inept, lazy and inarticulate. Granted, the article you linked to showed some really poor behaviour in terms of questions being closed. However, the biggest contributor to poor content has always been in my opinion those whom are rep-whores or newbies. I've had precisely one poor experience with a high-rep user, perhaps I'm sheltered or have been rather fortunate. Admittedly, I've only asked 1 question. It's a site for grown-ups and I'm perfectly happy to see it offending the sensibilities of those who dont care to familiarize themselves with the expectations and culture of the site. Other places are where you go if you want to have a conversation or to feel warm-and-fuzzy. Stack-Overflow is where you go if you'd like a specific question answered. As a kid, mum always said "I'm not going to reward poor behaviour." Whining for something in the supermarket not only meant obtaining it was impossible, but also that chances of something next time were poor at best. Sure, holding everyone to such a standard is difficult if not impossible - is that a reason to not try though? I dont think it is.
I disagree. Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button. It's a Q&A site... nothing more. I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue. To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I once contributed to the site. The positive feedback mechanism of points for helping is rather addictive. But, I've come to see a common pattern. That those who don't want to learn go there for copy-paste code. I find myself avoiding Stack Overflow, it is better to read the docs instead.
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I hadn't realized that it was ever intended for beginners. I'd always assumed that a misunderstanding of this was the source of much pain for the inept, lazy and inarticulate. Granted, the article you linked to showed some really poor behaviour in terms of questions being closed. However, the biggest contributor to poor content has always been in my opinion those whom are rep-whores or newbies. I've had precisely one poor experience with a high-rep user, perhaps I'm sheltered or have been rather fortunate. Admittedly, I've only asked 1 question. It's a site for grown-ups and I'm perfectly happy to see it offending the sensibilities of those who dont care to familiarize themselves with the expectations and culture of the site. Other places are where you go if you want to have a conversation or to feel warm-and-fuzzy. Stack-Overflow is where you go if you'd like a specific question answered. As a kid, mum always said "I'm not going to reward poor behaviour." Whining for something in the supermarket not only meant obtaining it was impossible, but also that chances of something next time were poor at best. Sure, holding everyone to such a standard is difficult if not impossible - is that a reason to not try though? I dont think it is.
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Online communities... are difficult things! :omg: All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar DirectX for WinRT/C# since 2013! Taking over the world since 1371!
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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I disagree. Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button. It's a Q&A site... nothing more. I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue. To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
If it's not broken, fix it until it is
Kevin Marois wrote:
I disagree.
With what, exactly?
Kevin Marois wrote:
Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button.
Actually, even closer to the top of the page is a menu option titled 'help' - the very first option of which is "Tour" - Start here for a quick overview of the site. I dont find anything presented there ambiguous. Many(most?) of the posts that receive a hostile reception are ones which have clearly not given consideration to the directions contained in this introduction page. The very first words on the page are in fact, "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers."- that in itself clearly and unequivocally (to me) says the site is not for beginners.
Kevin Marois wrote:
I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue.
Same, you've about 5 years on me - but don't you remember Usenet? Now that was a truly frosty and hostile environment with a far less clear mission statement. I've been flamed at SO once that I can recall - from some fella working as an Aus defence contractor with a rep of 400,000 or so. I guess my experiences have more fortunate than yours. I think the fact that it's aimed primarily at professional programmers speaks volumes for why some people are treated like fools. Walking into SO and asking how to put together a Hello World program is just begging for a smacking.
Kevin Marois wrote:
To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
It's all well and good to say that someone shouldn't answer if they don't have one, but it's an entirely different thing to read the Tour page and do as is said to be expected. Its expected that clarification will be sought, errors fixed and strident effort applied to make the site good. I agree that in many cases, an insulting comment will be supplied, rather than a simple, silent edit of the question. But surely political correctness for the sake of the thin-skinned does more damage than good? Poor answers should be discouraged, as should poor questions. Failure to do so si
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I happen to be pretty hard nosed, and thick skinned. Technically an adult. I've already written my program in VBA and am learning Python. 1v1 me bro.
PythonHeadBanger wrote:
I happen to be pretty hard nosed, and thick skinned. Technically an adult. I've already written my program in VBA and am learning Python. 1v1 me bro.
Laughs. Thanks for that, here catch a vote. (1v1 me bro.) Syntactical white-space should be against the geneva convention, I gave up on python a decade ago, for this and other reasons. The fact that its the scripting language of Blender is the only reason I ever bothered with it. NumPy is quite nice, but not quite enough to make it worthwhile for me. Pick a time and a place my friend. I taught myself Turbo Pascal while in detention in high-school and moved on to x86 assembly from there. In uni, people asked me more questions than the lecturer in programming class. Your turn! ;P
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Kevin Marois wrote:
I disagree.
With what, exactly?
Kevin Marois wrote:
Right at the top of the pages is are both Questions and Ask Question button.
Actually, even closer to the top of the page is a menu option titled 'help' - the very first option of which is "Tour" - Start here for a quick overview of the site. I dont find anything presented there ambiguous. Many(most?) of the posts that receive a hostile reception are ones which have clearly not given consideration to the directions contained in this introduction page. The very first words on the page are in fact, "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers."- that in itself clearly and unequivocally (to me) says the site is not for beginners.
Kevin Marois wrote:
I've been coding for 30 years and seen a lot of forums. SO is the only one where I get regularly flamed. I agree with the article.. the member and mods seems to go out of their way to ridicule and insult OP's because of a typo or some other non-question related issue.
Same, you've about 5 years on me - but don't you remember Usenet? Now that was a truly frosty and hostile environment with a far less clear mission statement. I've been flamed at SO once that I can recall - from some fella working as an Aus defence contractor with a rep of 400,000 or so. I guess my experiences have more fortunate than yours. I think the fact that it's aimed primarily at professional programmers speaks volumes for why some people are treated like fools. Walking into SO and asking how to put together a Hello World program is just begging for a smacking.
Kevin Marois wrote:
To be blunt - if someone doesn't have an answer, DON'T ANSWER... how hard is that?
It's all well and good to say that someone shouldn't answer if they don't have one, but it's an entirely different thing to read the Tour page and do as is said to be expected. Its expected that clarification will be sought, errors fixed and strident effort applied to make the site good. I agree that in many cases, an insulting comment will be supplied, rather than a simple, silent edit of the question. But surely political correctness for the sake of the thin-skinned does more damage than good? Poor answers should be discouraged, as should poor questions. Failure to do so si
Your points are very constructive. However when you require 'articulate' I would qualify that a little. People who do not have English as a first language can be assisted to get the question clear. Also I see no reason why a beginner cannot ask a reasonable question so making them feel excluded as part of a mission statement is not necessary. Just apply the same rules to all. I agree fully with your comments about maintaining quality and discouraging dud answers.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Your points are very constructive. However when you require 'articulate' I would qualify that a little. People who do not have English as a first language can be assisted to get the question clear. Also I see no reason why a beginner cannot ask a reasonable question so making them feel excluded as part of a mission statement is not necessary. Just apply the same rules to all. I agree fully with your comments about maintaining quality and discouraging dud answers.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
Another well considered response, as always. :thumbsup: I find it amusing that my touching on the topic of being articulate was not particularly articulate itself. You've qualified it nicely. It's common to see questions written in pidgin English which display far more effort than those of many native speakers - I for one am disappointed when conscientious non-native speakers are punished. Its precisely these types of questions that I find so enriching and often, the biggest take-away with real use in the face-face world. If my German was 1/2 as good as the pidgin English usually is, I'd feel very fortunate.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave Kreskowiak -
Super Lloyd wrote:
All hail CodeProject for doing an excellent work so far! :-D
So far. But I do see it slipping. Years ago CP was a very good place to both ask and answer questions. Though lately, especially in the Q&A section it is not so anymore. At least not for me. If someone asks a question about 'A' then answer the question about 'A', do not tell them that 'A' is the wrong approach and they had better use 'B' instead. I also see beginner questions being down voted, probably for being too simple. We all started knowing nothing and we learn by asking. Most times beginners just need a point in the right direction, and Google is not the direction they need. I also find that the more difficult or obscure questions do not get answered. The powers that be at CP had better be careful of this or soon CP will go the same way as SO.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
I see it too. I've been trolled twice in the past month on here; not too bad, but it irked me. I don't like to answer a question correctly and have it down-voted. Unfortunately, people have the safety of anonymity on the web, similarly as they do in their car; trolling the left lane (or right in GB). We're in the silly season and we should all probably think twice before posting or down voting a question on here or any other site. Even when someone posts a beginner level tip under article that is really bad, we should thank them for their effort and not be mean; just inform them how they could improve it. This is a very good site, yet we should all be a bit more understanding and polite. Thanks for your pov.
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A lot of the "beginner" questions that get down-voted earn it because the person isn't really asking a question. You get stuff like a post of a homework assignment. No question, just the homework assignment, like they want you to do their work for them and just hand them the code. You get stuff like, "how do I fix the error in this code?" and then they don't supply the error message, the line it throws on or post a huge code snippet and expect you to hunt through the code to find any and all problems. How about opposite? "I got this error message ... How do I fix it?" and don't show the code at all. Well, you might want to start with showing us the code that threw it! Stuff like "How do I use this library?" and give you some name of a library nobody has ever heard of. No other questions or specifics about what they're doing or any problem they're having. After 10+ years around here we have noticed the quality of questions going down hill. It's not so much a technical, "beginner" problems that get down-voted. It's usually the OP's lack of communications skills in merely asking the question, such as the ability to provide a context or even has some comprehension of "what would someone need to know about this problem to help me solve it?" Asking a question is a skill. With the passage of time, it seems that this is becoming a lost art instead of a basic educational necessity.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave KreskowiakYour points are valid.
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
basic educational necessity
It is very apparent that many questioners have very little basic education. If they did they would know some simple mathematics, how to consult documentation and use Google to do research. Many of us are professionals who learnt to program because a computer was a better tool than a slide rule. So we are used to mingling with a certain cohort and take certain rules for granted. The internet has brought us in contact with many and different people. This is a challenge which I have thought a lot about. Laziness accompanied by a complete lack of shame should not be rewarded but a genuine effort to learn can only be applauded. How to adjudicate this is the conundrum.
Peter Wasser "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I second the article, did very well on experts exchange 'in the old days' until amongst other reasons it closed itself in a way. I see wannebees that are hunting points inflating the qualtity of it all, and that is not just on stack overflow unfortunately. Too bad.
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I can't really speak for all, in my quests to find answers I found StackOverFlow pretty much useless this caused me to find CP and all is well, questions got answered with no abuse. Can't say I am surprised though!
I have never actually asked a question on SO, however I get 90% of my answers from them. If I can't find an answer on SO I ask the question on CP :-O
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
I'm reluctant to post questions on SO, despite having 18 years experience as a software developer. There is definitely an elitist mindset amongst many who post over there. Downvoting is common even for sensible questions, and it is very competitive in terms of gaining rep points. As an example, I posted a question on there a couple of months ago. We've just begun looking into using TeamCity as our Continuous Integration server. I have a lot of previous experience with CruiseControl.NET so am not some noobie. I understand the theory and concepts, so just wanted some general guidance on approaches to configuring TeamCity with TFS. So my question was open-ended as I was looking for advice and guidance. I checked my question later at lunch time to find that it had been downvoted twice and closed - "Question closed as vague and cannot be answered”. I had to delete the question for fear of losing more rep points. CP is a far more welcoming and helpful place to visit, and I want to see that continuing. CP is (IMO) the best technical resource on the Internet by a long way :-D
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare Home | LinkedIn | Google+ | Twitter
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https://medium.com/@johnslegers/the-decline-of-stack-overflow-7cb69faa575d#.w2e4w8u93[^] I am still reading it myself but can certainly attest that the new user experience over there is more like working at the United States Postal office or the Department of Motor Vehicles.
