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Focus groups

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  • C Chris Maunder

    Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

    cheers Chris Maunder

    N Offline
    N Offline
    Nagy Vilmos
    wrote on last edited by
    #7

    Chris Maunder wrote:

    we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to

    This is what happens in the Lounge every single day. Apart from sane, sensible and logical bits.

    veni bibi saltavi

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    • C Chris Maunder

      Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

      cheers Chris Maunder

      J Offline
      J Offline
      Jorgen Andersson
      wrote on last edited by
      #8

      Depends on the purpose of the focus group. Remember:

      Henry Ford said:

      If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses

      Steve Jobs Said:

      It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.

      But if you just want feedback on ads I'd say go for it.

      Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

      B 1 Reply Last reply
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      • C Chris Maunder

        Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

        cheers Chris Maunder

        B Offline
        B Offline
        BillWoodruff
        wrote on last edited by
        #9

        I think to try and render who "we" are from "our" response to some package-of-marketing-hype would be like trying to render what race-horses are by having a panel of jockeys discuss race-horse poop. :) cheers, Bill

        «Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.» Benjamin Franklin

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        • C Chris Maunder

          Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

          cheers Chris Maunder

          T Offline
          T Offline
          Tom Deketelaere
          wrote on last edited by
          #10

          I used to say (as a sort of joke): "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't" Lately when I say it it's more of a truth than a joke, most articles, documentation, adds, ... (not written by/for developers) that I'v read the past year, have so many logical errors in it, or just don't make any sense, that I'v started to question humanity's sanity. So yeah a group like that could be handy, only problem is we are all (I think) programmers so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?

          Tom

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          • C Chris Maunder

            Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

            cheers Chris Maunder

            OriginalGriffO Offline
            OriginalGriffO Offline
            OriginalGriff
            wrote on last edited by
            #11

            Oh come on! I've already got glasses for walking around, another set for reading, and a third for the computer - and you want a different focus now? :laugh:

            Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...

            "I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
            "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt

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            • B BillWoodruff

              I think to try and render who "we" are from "our" response to some package-of-marketing-hype would be like trying to render what race-horses are by having a panel of jockeys discuss race-horse poop. :) cheers, Bill

              «Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.» Benjamin Franklin

              G Offline
              G Offline
              Gary Wheeler
              wrote on last edited by
              #12

              :-D

              Software Zen: delete this;

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • C Chris Maunder

                Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                cheers Chris Maunder

                G Offline
                G Offline
                Gary Wheeler
                wrote on last edited by
                #13

                I'm trying to think of a metaphor that mixes "herding cats" and "chum in the water"... I got nothing.

                Software Zen: delete this;

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                • C Chris Maunder

                  Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                  cheers Chris Maunder

                  D Offline
                  D Offline
                  David Lumm
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #14

                  Haha! It could be quite entertaining to translate some of the bizarre stuff that comes out of marketing into something that developers could actually relate to. I can;t remember who said it, but someone once told me (or it might have been a talk somewhere, so it wasn't to me personally) that computers don't work like the human brain and programmers must adapt their thinking to become more like that of a computer in order to understand and solve programming problems, although we can never quite achieve that aim; in the end it means we neither think like the majority population, nor like the computers to which we are enslaved. Ends up just totally mangling the ol'noggin. :doh:

                  Er, I can't think of a funny signature right now. How about a good fart to break the silence?

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                  • C Chris Maunder

                    Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                    cheers Chris Maunder

                    M Offline
                    M Offline
                    milo xml
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #15

                    I'm interested in this. As someone who wears multiple hats at my job I often have to change my communication level depending upon to whom I'm talking to. If I'm talking to my boss, make it very general and put it on non computer terms. If I'm talking to the mechanical engineer that I work closely with, it's often that we say the same thing, but how we word it or approach it is different so it's often a challenge to get on the same page. If I'm talking to my users on the shop floor, it's mostly just cuss words and crude jokes about how much something sucks. From that I have to glean useful information on what needs to be changed.

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                    • T Tom Deketelaere

                      I used to say (as a sort of joke): "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't" Lately when I say it it's more of a truth than a joke, most articles, documentation, adds, ... (not written by/for developers) that I'v read the past year, have so many logical errors in it, or just don't make any sense, that I'v started to question humanity's sanity. So yeah a group like that could be handy, only problem is we are all (I think) programmers so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?

                      Tom

                      C Offline
                      C Offline
                      Chris Maunder
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #16

                      Tom Deketelaere wrote:

                      so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?

                      And you don't see the fun in that? ;)

                      cheers Chris Maunder

                      T 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • C Chris Maunder

                        Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                        cheers Chris Maunder

                        S Offline
                        S Offline
                        Sascha Lefevre
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #17

                        I'd join up for the fun of it :-D

                        If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. — Lyall Watson

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • T Tom Deketelaere

                          I used to say (as a sort of joke): "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't" Lately when I say it it's more of a truth than a joke, most articles, documentation, adds, ... (not written by/for developers) that I'v read the past year, have so many logical errors in it, or just don't make any sense, that I'v started to question humanity's sanity. So yeah a group like that could be handy, only problem is we are all (I think) programmers so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?

                          Tom

                          B Offline
                          B Offline
                          BrainiacV
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #18

                          Tom Deketelaere wrote:

                          "I'm normal, it's everyone else that isn't"

                          For me it was.. "I'm not a genius, It's just the rest of you are stupid."

                          Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                          • C Chris Maunder

                            Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                            cheers Chris Maunder

                            L Offline
                            L Offline
                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #19

                            Will we be using waterfall, incremental, iterative or agile?

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • J Jorgen Andersson

                              Depends on the purpose of the focus group. Remember:

                              Henry Ford said:

                              If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses

                              Steve Jobs Said:

                              It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.

                              But if you just want feedback on ads I'd say go for it.

                              Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

                              B Offline
                              B Offline
                              BrainiacV
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #20

                              Jörgen Andersson wrote:

                              A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.

                              As much as it pains me to somewhat agree with Steve Jobs (I met him once in '79 and concluded he was an asshole), my experience has been they don't know what you can do. After several iterative changes, I've asked, "Why didn't you ask for that to begin with?" And invariably the response is, "I didn't know if you could do that." Like it would never occur to me to say, "That's not possible."

                              Psychosis at 10 Film at 11 Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it. Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.

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                              • OriginalGriffO OriginalGriff

                                Oh come on! I've already got glasses for walking around, another set for reading, and a third for the computer - and you want a different focus now? :laugh:

                                Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...

                                S Offline
                                S Offline
                                Steven1218
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #21

                                Ha! Me too, I am near sighted but keep a 30 year old pair of glasses which are no longer good for distance but get me right to the computer screen.

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                                • C Chris Maunder

                                  Tom Deketelaere wrote:

                                  so wouldn't we all be sitting (virtually) around scratching our head in disbelieve and confusion?

                                  And you don't see the fun in that? ;)

                                  cheers Chris Maunder

                                  T Offline
                                  T Offline
                                  Tom Deketelaere
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #22

                                  O definitely, I just thought you wanted a serious group to help out :) Either way, sign me up (no idea if I'll be able to help with the serious part but...)

                                  Tom

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • C Chris Maunder

                                    Have any of you participated in Focus groups? I have, once, and it was odd. It got me thinking though. We talk to a lot of companies and it's disturbing that they are in our industry yet they don't understand us. A lovely, intelligent, witty person from an unnamed extremely Large Company I met with yesterday freely admitted that she just doesn't get (and will never get) developers. I wasn't offended. Not too much, anyway. So I thoughts to myself: I thought, what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point - and we have a focus group discuss how to present this in a sane, sensible, logical way that normal people (i.e. us) can understand and relate to. If there are enough people interested I'll start a group, post the link, and you lot can join up. I'll hunt around for some marketing-speke we can...discuss.

                                    cheers Chris Maunder

                                    P Offline
                                    P Offline
                                    patbob
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #23

                                    Chris Maunder wrote:

                                    what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point

                                    First off, what makes you think it misses the point? You can be sure those marketing folks already spent a lot of time on that message, making sure it conveyed the important information to the entire audience they were targeting, without offending any of them. In other words, they wouldn't have put that piece of marketing out unless they were very convinced it was already right. Now you come along, someone who probably doesn't represent the entire audience they are targeting, and pronounces that its wrong. Worse, you want to start a conversation with them from the point of "here's how its wrong, and here's how we can make it better". Flip this around, if they came to you and pronounced your coding wrong, and then wanted to start a conversation with you to tell you how to make it better, would you even listen to them? A better way to start this might be to understand who all they're targeting and why they think there message was right. Once you can see things from their side, then you'll be in a position to start that conversation, assuming its even still needed.

                                    We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.

                                    C 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • P patbob

                                      Chris Maunder wrote:

                                      what if we brought together a bunch of developers and worked and did some translation work. ie we take, for instance, a message, an ad, some product launch rhetoric - something that's typically illogical, poorly worded and misses the point

                                      First off, what makes you think it misses the point? You can be sure those marketing folks already spent a lot of time on that message, making sure it conveyed the important information to the entire audience they were targeting, without offending any of them. In other words, they wouldn't have put that piece of marketing out unless they were very convinced it was already right. Now you come along, someone who probably doesn't represent the entire audience they are targeting, and pronounces that its wrong. Worse, you want to start a conversation with them from the point of "here's how its wrong, and here's how we can make it better". Flip this around, if they came to you and pronounced your coding wrong, and then wanted to start a conversation with you to tell you how to make it better, would you even listen to them? A better way to start this might be to understand who all they're targeting and why they think there message was right. Once you can see things from their side, then you'll be in a position to start that conversation, assuming its even still needed.

                                      We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.

                                      C Offline
                                      C Offline
                                      Chris Maunder
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #24

                                      patbob wrote:

                                      You can be sure those marketing folks already spent a lot of time on that message, making sure it conveyed the important information to the entire audience they were targeting

                                      I beg to differ. I'm not being facetious, but I work with a lot of marketing departments and (at least in the IT space) there's a hell of a lot of misunderstanding of what the developer audience is. Marketing department tell me flat out that they don't "get" developers.

                                      patbob wrote:

                                      Now you come along, someone who probably doesn't represent the entire audience they are targeting, and pronounces that its wrong

                                      ...and so me putting together a bunch of people to get a more balanced view and provide feedback from a larger cross section is wrong?

                                      cheers Chris Maunder

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