Does The World realize that Windows 10 is no longer an operating system
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I don't think I'm making any assumptions, I'm simply reading what Microsoft and some who have looked ath their statements and examined the operating system environment of Windows 10 have said. In particular: "We will acess, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to protect our customers or enforce the terms governing the use of our services." That quote was from a Computerworld Aug, 4, 2015 article "Microsoft responds to Windows 10 privacy policy concerns." Microsoft added (in direct communication with the author of that article) "...we store the personal information you provide on computer systems that have limited access and are in controlled facilities." These statements harmonize well with what I just read online as the latest edition of Microsoft official Windows 10 privacy statements ("Windows 10 and your online services"): "This data, collectively called 'telemetry', can also help us understand gaps in our services so we can help people use Windows more effectively...We use tiny samples of your typing and handwriting info to improve our dictionaries and handwriting recognition...when you turn on typing, inking and speech data.." It appears to me (from their own statements in the context of the continuing discussion of the matter) that Microsoft is not denying that they have access to any and all data on any device, including a personal computer, that is running Windows 10 (noted that they are assuring us that they won't misuse that access). I do see reports online (for example InfoWorld Aug 13, 2015, quoting Peter Bright from Ars Technica) that, for example, even with OneDrive disabled and use of a local account login the telemetry is still making requrests to a content delivery network that bypasses proxies. I am saying that Microsoft should make all this clear, i.e., that it has moved on from the local private OS PC market so people who don't want that kind of environment can make an informed market choice, not have the thing inserted on their computer or forced on them through the cooperation of PC OEM's. Microsoft enjoyed monopoly power over the years because they convinced the government that they would self-restrain themselves and were providing a stable platform for a very large and important business sector. If they have moved to a new model, the software as a service and the same expectation of privacy as a
I see your point and I will do the same for now (as long as it is not crystal clear what they do under the hood). Stick to Win7 to the bitter end and try to learn linux properly in the meanwhile.
Ancient Zygote wrote:
why can't Bill see fit to lock Windows into a stable platform and open API at minimum (say Windows 7 or previous)? This would give tremendous openings to many developers to write new and innovative applicatons for a stable well known PC platform. OpenOffice for one is an excellent Office substitute---think what else could be developed.
Exactly because of that. OpenOffice give MS no benefits. And at the end MS is a benefit oriented company and not a ONG
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Privacy; Consent to Use of Data.
Your privacy is important to us. ... By accepting this agreement and using the software you agree that Microsoft may collect, use, and disclose the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement...
Microsoft Privacy Statement[^] In the language of lawyers (I asked two) it means that you are agree that Microsoft collect and use data from your computer in any way likes...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
Microsoft collect and use data from your computer in any way likes...
I'd get a new lawyer if I were you. :) The statement you quoted clearly refers to "the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement". That doesn't mean absolutely anything they want to collect; if it's not described in the privacy statement, it's not covered. And as for "in any way it likes", the privacy statement clearly sets out the ways they'll use the data they collect. If it actually meant they could do what they like with your data, they'd be facing class action lawsuits by now. That's not to say they can't take all of your data and do what they like with it; that's just not what the privacy statement says.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined" - Homer
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
Microsoft collect and use data from your computer in any way likes...
I'd get a new lawyer if I were you. :) The statement you quoted clearly refers to "the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement". That doesn't mean absolutely anything they want to collect; if it's not described in the privacy statement, it's not covered. And as for "in any way it likes", the privacy statement clearly sets out the ways they'll use the data they collect. If it actually meant they could do what they like with your data, they'd be facing class action lawsuits by now. That's not to say they can't take all of your data and do what they like with it; that's just not what the privacy statement says.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Wrong...It is true that the privacy statement referenced, but not included, and for that it can be changed whenever Microsoft want's and you still obliged to it... More of it...In the next update Microsoft can add a new 'feature' that collects data from your computer without any acknowledge from your part...As long as there is an 'off' switch for the feature somewhere in the system Microsoft covered (even you do not know of it)... Believe these lawyers - they are the dirtiest mind around...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
"It never ceases to amaze me that a spacecraft launched in 1977 can be fixed remotely from Earth." ― Brian Cox
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Wrong...It is true that the privacy statement referenced, but not included, and for that it can be changed whenever Microsoft want's and you still obliged to it... More of it...In the next update Microsoft can add a new 'feature' that collects data from your computer without any acknowledge from your part...As long as there is an 'off' switch for the feature somewhere in the system Microsoft covered (even you do not know of it)... Believe these lawyers - they are the dirtiest mind around...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Yes, they could change the privacy policy in the future. But that doesn't mean that the privacy policy as currently worded gives them carte-blanche to collect whatever they want from your system and use it however they want. Next week, they could decide to update their privacy policy to say that you agree to give them your first born child. That doesn't mean they're coming to collect your baby today. And AFAIK, in most legal systems, one party cannot make and enforce unilateral changes to a contract without consent from the other party.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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I don't think I'm making any assumptions, I'm simply reading what Microsoft and some who have looked ath their statements and examined the operating system environment of Windows 10 have said. In particular: "We will acess, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to protect our customers or enforce the terms governing the use of our services." That quote was from a Computerworld Aug, 4, 2015 article "Microsoft responds to Windows 10 privacy policy concerns." Microsoft added (in direct communication with the author of that article) "...we store the personal information you provide on computer systems that have limited access and are in controlled facilities." These statements harmonize well with what I just read online as the latest edition of Microsoft official Windows 10 privacy statements ("Windows 10 and your online services"): "This data, collectively called 'telemetry', can also help us understand gaps in our services so we can help people use Windows more effectively...We use tiny samples of your typing and handwriting info to improve our dictionaries and handwriting recognition...when you turn on typing, inking and speech data.." It appears to me (from their own statements in the context of the continuing discussion of the matter) that Microsoft is not denying that they have access to any and all data on any device, including a personal computer, that is running Windows 10 (noted that they are assuring us that they won't misuse that access). I do see reports online (for example InfoWorld Aug 13, 2015, quoting Peter Bright from Ars Technica) that, for example, even with OneDrive disabled and use of a local account login the telemetry is still making requrests to a content delivery network that bypasses proxies. I am saying that Microsoft should make all this clear, i.e., that it has moved on from the local private OS PC market so people who don't want that kind of environment can make an informed market choice, not have the thing inserted on their computer or forced on them through the cooperation of PC OEM's. Microsoft enjoyed monopoly power over the years because they convinced the government that they would self-restrain themselves and were providing a stable platform for a very large and important business sector. If they have moved to a new model, the software as a service and the same expectation of privacy as a
Ancient Zygote wrote:
I don't think many informed consumers do
Oh, very good. Nice little barb at the end there. No matter the 150 million installations and rising. We're all 'uninformed'. Splendid! Well I'll just get back to my out of touch, ignorant, computing life and leave you and your 'informed' consumers to scrabble around trying to make a silk ear out of Linux then. That is your sponsor, I assume?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Ancient Zygote wrote:
I don't think many informed consumers do
Oh, very good. Nice little barb at the end there. No matter the 150 million installations and rising. We're all 'uninformed'. Splendid! Well I'll just get back to my out of touch, ignorant, computing life and leave you and your 'informed' consumers to scrabble around trying to make a silk ear out of Linux then. That is your sponsor, I assume?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
9082365 wrote:
to make a silk ear out of Linux
:laugh:
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Yes, they could change the privacy policy in the future. But that doesn't mean that the privacy policy as currently worded gives them carte-blanche to collect whatever they want from your system and use it however they want. Next week, they could decide to update their privacy policy to say that you agree to give them your first born child. That doesn't mean they're coming to collect your baby today. And AFAIK, in most legal systems, one party cannot make and enforce unilateral changes to a contract without consent from the other party.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
And AFAIK, in most legal systems, one party cannot make and enforce unilateral changes to a contract without consent from the other party.
True but not strictly relevant in this case, particularly if you haven't paid for it. The real point is that the OS is an at will arrangement on your part. You are not tied in to anything. You can at any time simply stop using it in part or in whole (despite the paranoid insistence above use of Cortana and the like is entirely optional) without needing to give notice or explanation. Microsoft can enforce changes on the agreement in the sense that it's their club and their rules. But you are under no obligation to join the club or, having joined, see out your membership.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Ancient Zygote wrote:
I don't think many informed consumers do
Oh, very good. Nice little barb at the end there. No matter the 150 million installations and rising. We're all 'uninformed'. Splendid! Well I'll just get back to my out of touch, ignorant, computing life and leave you and your 'informed' consumers to scrabble around trying to make a silk ear out of Linux then. That is your sponsor, I assume?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
I didn't intend to insult anyone who has chosen to use Windows 10. I was simply noting, as did Forbes in their November 10, 2015 article "Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Secretly Installed On Windows 7, Windows 8", that there was not a lot of interest in Windows 10, or outright negative feelings about it, such that Microsoft began surreptitiously installing Win 10 on Win 7 and Win 8 customer computers in November without their permission after the initial 5.38% market share obtained in August 2015 slipped to about 1.4% increases in Sept and Oct 2015. So, many of the 200 million devices Yusuf Mehdi, Corporate Vice President, Windows and Devices Group at Microsoft, now using Windows 10 may not have made that choice voluntarily. In addition, since the IT world is just now beginning to realize what Windows 10 actually is, i.e., a SaaS platform with all user data on a PC now subject to transmission back to Microsoft, I intended to imply that many of the people who did actually voluntarily accept the free install of Windows 10 probably did so without realizing how great the change was from previous operating systems provided by Microsoft. I know it took me about a month of reading reports from IT folks before it began to sink in that this was unprecedented. It is amusing that Microsoft has been parrying the concerns about the invasion of privacy with Windows 10 and then Mehdi (introduced above) makes a crowing announcement recently highlighting statistics of exactly what Windows 10 users have been doing on their computers! Mehdi gives the minutes spent using the Edge browser, questions asked with Cortana, number of photos viewed with the Win 10 photo app, number of hours spent playing games on Windows 10, number of hours streaming xbox to Win 10 pc's, number of Bing queries made from Win 10 devices...Forbes asks, is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries? The answer according to the Micorosft privacy statements I have read, and their analysis by reputable tech industry analysts, is yes. Let me state again that I am not challenging Microsoft's right to do anything they like in a product or service they offer in the market, as long as that is a free market (not the monopoly on Intel compatible PCs that they have enjoyed since MSDOS) and the buyers voluntarily, knowing what they are purchasing, choose to use the product. When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's, that is monopoly behavior that really needs to be re-examined in light of the actual characteristics of this new product. I am surprised t
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I didn't intend to insult anyone who has chosen to use Windows 10. I was simply noting, as did Forbes in their November 10, 2015 article "Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Secretly Installed On Windows 7, Windows 8", that there was not a lot of interest in Windows 10, or outright negative feelings about it, such that Microsoft began surreptitiously installing Win 10 on Win 7 and Win 8 customer computers in November without their permission after the initial 5.38% market share obtained in August 2015 slipped to about 1.4% increases in Sept and Oct 2015. So, many of the 200 million devices Yusuf Mehdi, Corporate Vice President, Windows and Devices Group at Microsoft, now using Windows 10 may not have made that choice voluntarily. In addition, since the IT world is just now beginning to realize what Windows 10 actually is, i.e., a SaaS platform with all user data on a PC now subject to transmission back to Microsoft, I intended to imply that many of the people who did actually voluntarily accept the free install of Windows 10 probably did so without realizing how great the change was from previous operating systems provided by Microsoft. I know it took me about a month of reading reports from IT folks before it began to sink in that this was unprecedented. It is amusing that Microsoft has been parrying the concerns about the invasion of privacy with Windows 10 and then Mehdi (introduced above) makes a crowing announcement recently highlighting statistics of exactly what Windows 10 users have been doing on their computers! Mehdi gives the minutes spent using the Edge browser, questions asked with Cortana, number of photos viewed with the Win 10 photo app, number of hours spent playing games on Windows 10, number of hours streaming xbox to Win 10 pc's, number of Bing queries made from Win 10 devices...Forbes asks, is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries? The answer according to the Micorosft privacy statements I have read, and their analysis by reputable tech industry analysts, is yes. Let me state again that I am not challenging Microsoft's right to do anything they like in a product or service they offer in the market, as long as that is a free market (not the monopoly on Intel compatible PCs that they have enjoyed since MSDOS) and the buyers voluntarily, knowing what they are purchasing, choose to use the product. When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's, that is monopoly behavior that really needs to be re-examined in light of the actual characteristics of this new product. I am surprised t
Ancient Zygote wrote:
is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries
Yes, of course it is. It's a search engine (well an interface with Bing anyway). Most search engines retain questions you ask for all kinds of interesting reasons. See Google's trending stats, for example. But, for what nowseems to be the millionth time, using Windows 10 does not require you to use Cortana, nor Bing as your default search engine. It is an optional, additional service. It is not part of the OS.
Ancient Zygote wrote:
When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's
If that were true, and it is far from it, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. It is a choice made entirely by the manufacturers and sellers of PCs. Equally it is entirely the choice of the buyers to obtain their computer through those outlets that do preinstall Windows and, having done so, whether to keep it or install an alternative (a choice not afforded in any way to buyers of Apple computers, of course!) Like Google's, Microsoft's 'monopoly' is a posteriori, the result of producing the most sought after product. It is not the case that there is no competition and no option for the consumer.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Ancient Zygote wrote:
is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries
Yes, of course it is. It's a search engine (well an interface with Bing anyway). Most search engines retain questions you ask for all kinds of interesting reasons. See Google's trending stats, for example. But, for what nowseems to be the millionth time, using Windows 10 does not require you to use Cortana, nor Bing as your default search engine. It is an optional, additional service. It is not part of the OS.
Ancient Zygote wrote:
When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's
If that were true, and it is far from it, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. It is a choice made entirely by the manufacturers and sellers of PCs. Equally it is entirely the choice of the buyers to obtain their computer through those outlets that do preinstall Windows and, having done so, whether to keep it or install an alternative (a choice not afforded in any way to buyers of Apple computers, of course!) Like Google's, Microsoft's 'monopoly' is a posteriori, the result of producing the most sought after product. It is not the case that there is no competition and no option for the consumer.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
Cortana is going to be the primary interface to the Windows operating system. It assumes that role now in a development stage, which goes to the question of why Microsoft insists that any interaction with Cortana is subject to their remote transmission and analysis (this whole speech to text problem is a very difficult nut to crack and initially is requiring remote massive processing power and analysis). To assert that this is a minor problem since an IP address might be scrubbed is foolishness (you can hardly remove your name and other identifying data from an all-inclusive stream of anything you may say in interating with your personal computer, not to mention the data stored on the computer, which is also subject to use by MS). I realize you find this horrifying and don't want to believe it is happening (I'm with you in that reaction). Now as to installation of Windows 10 on most PC's in the future being an independent decision of OEM's (and chipmakers) and Microsoft having earned its place as a monopoly by offering a superior product in a free market, I'm not going to rehash decades of public record in the law. I'll just point you at one relevant court decision: 253 F. 3d 34 - Court of Appeals, Dist. of Columbia Circuit, 2001. This was the court favorable to Microsoft, the one that reversed Judge Jackson's order to break up Microsoft. However, they did not deny that Microsoft was a monopoly in the operating system market for Intel-compatible computers and maintained that position via illegal activity (e.g., polluting the Java code base, forcing Apple to use IE, forcing Intel to stop supporting Java, etc. etc.). If you will spend the time to read the entire court opinion, it is an astounding detailed factual account of the thuggish (I cannot avoid the use of that term) illegal conduct by Microsoft. There apparently was some kind of understanding reached with Bill Gates, since he withdrew from an active role in the company after that and only returned in 2014 (hence the frightening recent developments, grin). For earlier judicial comment on what Microsoft was doing to offer "the most sought after product," see Judge Stanley Sporkin's opinion 1995 in refusing to sign the consent decree to resolve US v Microsoft: http://www.justice.gov/atr/memorandum-opinion-us-v-microsoft-corp It does appear that Microsoft is trying to help Enterprise level customers turn off all of the remote telemetry in Windows 10: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx I had wondered abou
