So this whole FBI/Apple thing
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Slacker007 wrote:
Any hack they do without Apple's approval, is illegal and not admissible in court.
That's not true at all. Apple doesn't own the phone, nor did the terrorist. It was owned by his employer (a local government agency) and they've given the FBI the OK. The only legal argument I can imagine (other than the obvious point that the FBI wants to set a precedent for the 100's of thousands of new cases where they'll want access) is that a jury may feel that an "official" Apple hack is less likely to corrupt data. Imagine the police finding a safe in a criminal's house. They don't need to demand a master key from the manufacturer. They hire a damn locksmith. Same principle here.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
I'm sure Apple could pull some obscure line out of their cavernous terms of service to exert ownership just like John Deere and GMC tried.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Vark111 wrote:
Where does it leave the government?
At the mercy of John McAfee of course[^] :rolleyes: One of the ridiculous parts of this whole charade is why the US government seems to think they need Apple for this. The NSA has in it's employ some serious brainiacs that could likely perform the requested tasks totally under the radar.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
One of the ridiculous parts of this whole charade is why the US government seems to think they need Apple for this.
It's theatre. Think about it. There is growing resistance to the government's attempts to get backdoors installed in encryption and security software. So what are they doing? Making a public case about them not asking for a backdoor. Which they aren't. They're asking for the bouncer (the ten tries and you're wiped mechanism) to be fired so they can stand at the front door and try all the keys until they find the right one. They're pretending they're trying to play by the rules now. I just hope people (the common person, not us technically literate ones) see through the charade...
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
If not Apple today it will be Google or Microsoft tomorrow.
Ah yes! Bastions of personal privacy . . . . . . except all information they gather from you to sell to the highest bidders (and the not so high bidders).* * For example, you do know gmail's terms of service, right?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Be that as it may, it's certainly easier to move to a different company's ecosystem when you don't agree with their policies than it is to completely move countries. Governments should be held to a much, much, much higher standard.
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I know it's been discussed to death in other threads, but I have a different angle that just came to mind and I'm honestly curious if anyone else has seen/heard a similar thing happening anywhere (albeit likely at a much smaller scale). For the sake of argument, let's pretend the courtroom dust has settled, and the end result is in: Apple is compelled to create a new tool/OS for the FBI to use for its hacking pleasure. So here's where my question comes in. What if every developer in Apple's employ decides they'd rather quit than work on that project? What if they publicly announce a sort of conscientious objector or something? Where does that leave Apple (other than programmer-less)? Where does it leave the government? The ruling is against Apple, not any single developer, and you can't exactly threaten someone with jail for quitting their job, right? Any thoughts?
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Another thought: If Apple cave in, what happens in six months time when China demand the tools to decrypt the iPhone from a captured CIA agent? :~ Troy Hunt's blog post on the topic is a good read: Troy Hunt: Everything you need to know about the Apple versus FBI case[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
If Apple cave in, what happens in six months time when China demand the tools to decrypt the iPhone from a captured CIA agent?
Well that assumes China needs a captured agent to get the info. I am sure that they've got hackers/crackers whose sole purpose in life is to break phone security. :)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Be that as it may, it's certainly easier to move to a different company's ecosystem when you don't agree with their policies than it is to completely move countries. Governments should be held to a much, much, much higher standard.
There's a naivety in thinking you can move from the 'ecosystem' as you call it. For an outstanding example, consider that I've never agreed to Google's terms of service for anything - and never had a gmail account. Yet - if I send email to someone with such an account my email is kept, scanned, archived, etc. Now, should I send an email to another gmail sucker, they get my information there, too - they've just started a profile on me. Any mail sent to me from gmail account? More of the same. Soon, that ecosystem has invaded my privacy big-time - without so much as a warrant, agreement, warning, or anything else. And to whom are they accountable?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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True - which makes it all the sadder that I still trust all 3 of them (to do the right thing) more than I trust my government these days. :|
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
This is my own personal opinion, but I've been observing what has been a persistent anti-government propaganda war of great intensity for quite a few years. They also have an appropriate 'news' station to further their goals. What goal? To remove government interference in people's lives. Rather - let's rephrase that to the truth behind the matter: they want the government interference moved to a more local level where they can trample civil rights far more easily. From my experience, it's clear that local governments are far better at pushing the wishes and beliefs of a few local influential up my a$$ than the federal government ever was or wants to be. Consider this: the part that's most for "homeland security"'s overreach capabilities are the same ones who whine about government intrusion in private lives. If you read the bold faced print that's between the lines, it really comes down to re-enabling the robber-barons to abuse capitalism. Deregulation (first Reagan, then The Shrub) cost us two real-estate investment fiascoes (S&L's, then the monster we're only just getting out of)! I've read Machiavelli's "The Prince" - and if taken as the tongue-in-cheek tome it was meant to be (hence keeping Machiavelli alive), you see the same crap's still successfully used. The difference being that many of the prince's now are the super-rich (Koch Bros., for example). There's plenty wrong with government - and as a child of the Vietnam War era, I've protested more than a little - but beware the exploitative manipulation that would make you consider trusting a corporate entity with no scruples beyond the dollar sign. You really don't get many votes on how they do what they do.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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This is my own personal opinion, but I've been observing what has been a persistent anti-government propaganda war of great intensity for quite a few years. They also have an appropriate 'news' station to further their goals. What goal? To remove government interference in people's lives. Rather - let's rephrase that to the truth behind the matter: they want the government interference moved to a more local level where they can trample civil rights far more easily. From my experience, it's clear that local governments are far better at pushing the wishes and beliefs of a few local influential up my a$$ than the federal government ever was or wants to be. Consider this: the part that's most for "homeland security"'s overreach capabilities are the same ones who whine about government intrusion in private lives. If you read the bold faced print that's between the lines, it really comes down to re-enabling the robber-barons to abuse capitalism. Deregulation (first Reagan, then The Shrub) cost us two real-estate investment fiascoes (S&L's, then the monster we're only just getting out of)! I've read Machiavelli's "The Prince" - and if taken as the tongue-in-cheek tome it was meant to be (hence keeping Machiavelli alive), you see the same crap's still successfully used. The difference being that many of the prince's now are the super-rich (Koch Bros., for example). There's plenty wrong with government - and as a child of the Vietnam War era, I've protested more than a little - but beware the exploitative manipulation that would make you consider trusting a corporate entity with no scruples beyond the dollar sign. You really don't get many votes on how they do what they do.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
We'll have to agree to disagree. Any further discussion is probably too political for the Lounge. Good luck... comrade. :laugh:
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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There's a naivety in thinking you can move from the 'ecosystem' as you call it. For an outstanding example, consider that I've never agreed to Google's terms of service for anything - and never had a gmail account. Yet - if I send email to someone with such an account my email is kept, scanned, archived, etc. Now, should I send an email to another gmail sucker, they get my information there, too - they've just started a profile on me. Any mail sent to me from gmail account? More of the same. Soon, that ecosystem has invaded my privacy big-time - without so much as a warrant, agreement, warning, or anything else. And to whom are they accountable?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'd never considered that angle before. I'd always assumed that they didn't keep anything since you hadn't agreed to their terms of service. But you may well be right. Seems like the two situations aren't quite as comparable as I thought. Google and GMail are practically everywhere; countries aren't. Unless you want to talk about global spying being done by certain nation-states, but that's another conversation entirely...
