Scrum/Stand up meetings
-
I agree there is definite value in stand up when a team is location split. We all know that isn't ideal, but sometimes it's necessary and a quick sync between the team just lets everyone share where we need to go. I would note it's very easy for these things to morph to being out of team control, sounds like Vunic is having this issue.
GStrad wrote:
I would note it's very easy for these things to morph to being out of team control, sounds like Vunic is having this issue.
You're right. You need a good Scrum Master or someone who can make sure meetings stay on task. It isn't that hard.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
-
I agree there is definite value in stand up when a team is location split. We all know that isn't ideal, but sometimes it's necessary and a quick sync between the team just lets everyone share where we need to go. I would note it's very easy for these things to morph to being out of team control, sounds like Vunic is having this issue.
The only issue I see is the directors' attitude. I have not complained about any other things here. And stand up meetings also, Im against doing it mechanically at a specific time daily. Forcing someone to come on time implicitly. And to see if all are always loaded. No matter its short or long meetings, I'm for all these on need basis.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
-
Yeah there's some kind of "hybrid" work management evolving in companies around here. They pick up all the buzz words like Scrum/Standup/Agile etc and mix it with traditional work-bullying techniques. They want to squeeze work out every hour. We work across different locations. Some of team members are in other location. When these people spend multiple hours in social networks , or over phone with family. The directors there pings me and verifies with me if all these guys are properly "loaded". I'm really getting pissed off with these terminologies. Thanks for the link. It's wonderful! Never came across this one.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
Vunic wrote:
They want to squeeze work out every hour.
Which is death to a productive creative developer. Liking to think that I am a number 3(in your list) - if you looked at me at work you might think that I am not doing very much sometimes, but I am thinking. Then when my hands hit the keyboard I am very productive on the non-neuronal physical plane - I have never been late on a project yet(at least not for any reasons based on decisions I have made). So when the boss sometimes wants to know what the team has been up to on a daily basis, there is the sound of a collective sight from everyone. Explaining that all the projects have been delivered on time and that we have provided more than has been asked for is not enough - we have to to seen to be busy all the time too. Did I say that I was leaving my current job on Thursday next week? In my experience of IT work, I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people who manage IT teams who do not have 10+years of developer/Ops experience are not fit for the job(there is a minority who are just gifted, empathetic and intelligent people who can pull it off). This said if everything is very structured and the team is really using an agile methodology then there is no reason why the creative thinkers should not be able to factor this in as part of the daily report in - it's fine to say ' I am still investigating the possibilities of xyz framework'.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
-
The only issue I see is the directors' attitude. I have not complained about any other things here. And stand up meetings also, Im against doing it mechanically at a specific time daily. Forcing someone to come on time implicitly. And to see if all are always loaded. No matter its short or long meetings, I'm for all these on need basis.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
Apologies if I read to much into some of your comments about directors behaviour I read it that the daily is being used a space to monitor the teams 'loading'. It does sound like the directors attitude is stinky and I would expect scrum master or agile coach to be pushing back on the directors. BTW, To me the stand up doesn't have to be at start of day so it doesn't police timeliness, I've worked in a few teams where it has middle of the day or last thing - whatever suits the team it's their meeting (and as such is as valuable, long / short or existent as the team needs). As for loading - I would expect any decent manager to understand how loading / overloading and creative thinking work - that is part of what they are paid for. Although (again) they will need some tutoring if they don't understand it.
-
Apologies if I read to much into some of your comments about directors behaviour I read it that the daily is being used a space to monitor the teams 'loading'. It does sound like the directors attitude is stinky and I would expect scrum master or agile coach to be pushing back on the directors. BTW, To me the stand up doesn't have to be at start of day so it doesn't police timeliness, I've worked in a few teams where it has middle of the day or last thing - whatever suits the team it's their meeting (and as such is as valuable, long / short or existent as the team needs). As for loading - I would expect any decent manager to understand how loading / overloading and creative thinking work - that is part of what they are paid for. Although (again) they will need some tutoring if they don't understand it.
No worries. The background of the directors matters. They all come from big Indian companies , and the way they get the job done is totally different there. They try to apply all the out dated management techniques in the name of Agile/Scrum. There are different teams operating, I in couple of LT meeting, leads have raised the productivity levels of few people, who apparently slacked way too much and nothing could be done out of them. Eventually all of them were shown the door. These incidents trigger panic in the minds of directors, who also happens to be Founders/investors. So tend to go in this 'take no chance' mode and try to grip everyone through the same law. But I'm the shield for my team. I set them free as much as possible and make everything by need basis. Only this "thorough" daily meeting , for the moment I'm doing as it was insisted routinely. But I'm putting my case clear on these things. And basically these big guys are not so bad, they listen to me and many times they go with what I'm suggesting. I think it's a matter of proving the productivity levels , with my customized dev-ops model. I'll be there !
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
-
Yeah that's how it has to be, But the directors want to see through the list of things that's made progress. They set the standard and I'm following it to some extent for my team, by compulsion. They even stick the sticky-notes on wall and do all those colorful kanban thing. But I don't do this for my team. TFS got the same online, I just go with it.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
The tasks should be broken down in something like Jira. Given appropriate states, it becomes trivial to see what the status of tasks are without the need for meetings. The key is to keep tasks small.
This space for rent
-
The tasks should be broken down in something like Jira. Given appropriate states, it becomes trivial to see what the status of tasks are without the need for meetings. The key is to keep tasks small.
This space for rent
Yeah we are breaking down the tasks as much as possible. This particular thing comes into picture, when the nature of task is like Writing algorithm for a module. For continuous days, the guy in context, will not touch anything, but on third day, he completes it matching with the estimate that he initially given :3 days. And it's something worth 3 days in fact. The first two days, he got nothing to share in the Sync meetings. He just says, I'm studying the problem, That's WIP, with a sheepish looks. But he goes back to his desk & spend hell lot of time in Facebook. I think somewhere in Facebook he's taking inspiration from to get into his work by mid-night of 2nd day, before coming to office. Why I'm not much affected by this usually is, The type-1 people who rigorously work, for sure take 3 days, to finish the same problem. The only thing I suffer a bit is the anxiety he creates by the 3rd day, I always doubted if he'll be able to finish it on time. 95% he's finishing it by 'EOD'. As he calls it! 'EOD' means precisely 12:00 am in his language. Not the evening 7:00, that all people log out of work.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
-
No worries. The background of the directors matters. They all come from big Indian companies , and the way they get the job done is totally different there. They try to apply all the out dated management techniques in the name of Agile/Scrum. There are different teams operating, I in couple of LT meeting, leads have raised the productivity levels of few people, who apparently slacked way too much and nothing could be done out of them. Eventually all of them were shown the door. These incidents trigger panic in the minds of directors, who also happens to be Founders/investors. So tend to go in this 'take no chance' mode and try to grip everyone through the same law. But I'm the shield for my team. I set them free as much as possible and make everything by need basis. Only this "thorough" daily meeting , for the moment I'm doing as it was insisted routinely. But I'm putting my case clear on these things. And basically these big guys are not so bad, they listen to me and many times they go with what I'm suggesting. I think it's a matter of proving the productivity levels , with my customized dev-ops model. I'll be there !
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
Don't you hate having to drop everything for a "pointless" meeting when you are in full creative flow? Sadly, that is part of the game.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
-
Don't you hate having to drop everything for a "pointless" meeting when you are in full creative flow? Sadly, that is part of the game.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
Seriously that's so disgusting. And I've freed my team from so many of these nonsense. There were even some kind of implicit rules to force people to log into work on time, quite early in the morning, No matter if his/hers presence in the office is required so early in the office or not. They were trying to establish a kind of "Best practices". I've stopped them from doing what is not exactly , required.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
-
The tasks should be broken down in something like Jira. Given appropriate states, it becomes trivial to see what the status of tasks are without the need for meetings. The key is to keep tasks small.
This space for rent
A bit of caution about Pete's approach: If you take that approach, you might get dangerously close to an environment where you can trust the development staff to manage themselves. Then, the organization might realize that management is overrated. Who will we get to synergize efforts across problem spaces buzzword buzzword buzzword? ;P
-
Stand up is just a team sync up, to let the team know if one of them needs to help another or if some unexpected problem hit. It's that simple, shouldn't be some form of report to managers or somewhere where anyone should feel ashamed. A good team appreciates what each and every person brings to the table because we are all different.
-
Different types of people in my team. 1. The one that works like terminator, without any kind of distractions, Focuses on the tasks for 8 continuous hours. Reports a perfect list of items completed in daily meeting. These are HIGHLY productive but not much creative thinking. 2. The one that slacks a bit & never come to work on time, but suggests something surprisingly new. Also gets the work done in top most perfection, but with a marginal slip of deadline, occasionally. 3. There were very few, who got the ability to focus, be productive & at the same time come up with new creative ideas. And they don't stay in the organization for long. Now the abuse called stand up meeting everyday, It puts No.2 people in shame. Because they don't have a concrete work-log to showcase everyday, but on alternative days, they show the right progress balancing the previous day. And mostly done with better design/code etc. Sometimes they spend most of the time on social networks & Whenever they don't have something to show, they feel a bit shrunken. I'm thinking why should we put them to shame everyday in the name of meeting, when they are completing them all, every alternative day. But my directors insist to have this practice everyday. I'm just thinking.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
-
Different types of people in my team. 1. The one that works like terminator, without any kind of distractions, Focuses on the tasks for 8 continuous hours. Reports a perfect list of items completed in daily meeting. These are HIGHLY productive but not much creative thinking. 2. The one that slacks a bit & never come to work on time, but suggests something surprisingly new. Also gets the work done in top most perfection, but with a marginal slip of deadline, occasionally. 3. There were very few, who got the ability to focus, be productive & at the same time come up with new creative ideas. And they don't stay in the organization for long. Now the abuse called stand up meeting everyday, It puts No.2 people in shame. Because they don't have a concrete work-log to showcase everyday, but on alternative days, they show the right progress balancing the previous day. And mostly done with better design/code etc. Sometimes they spend most of the time on social networks & Whenever they don't have something to show, they feel a bit shrunken. I'm thinking why should we put them to shame everyday in the name of meeting, when they are completing them all, every alternative day. But my directors insist to have this practice everyday. I'm just thinking.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
I had a boss who wanted a daily standup where we reported status. We held it on an IRC channel instead of face-to-face (we had a profoundly deaf colleague). I got in the habit of pre-writing my status report and pasting it into the IRC window at the exact start of the meeting. My colleagues began to do the same. We achieved a 60-second standup. Once or twice a month, we actually had something to talk about, like needing help or hitting a roadblock. We managed to convert a useless meeting to a meeting whose uselessness took so little time that it evolved to a purposeful meeting. I had another job where we had a daily standup where people reported status. I started emailing the group my status before the meeting. This caught on among the group in about one week. In this way we took a "standup" that took one hour and created a more reasonable 15 minute meeting. Never do in a live meeting anything that can be done with electronic communication. The cost is too high. And yeah, you can call yourself agile, and describe your interminable meetings as standups, but if you do, you are delusional. Most managers are delusional. Why is that?
-
Different types of people in my team. 1. The one that works like terminator, without any kind of distractions, Focuses on the tasks for 8 continuous hours. Reports a perfect list of items completed in daily meeting. These are HIGHLY productive but not much creative thinking. 2. The one that slacks a bit & never come to work on time, but suggests something surprisingly new. Also gets the work done in top most perfection, but with a marginal slip of deadline, occasionally. 3. There were very few, who got the ability to focus, be productive & at the same time come up with new creative ideas. And they don't stay in the organization for long. Now the abuse called stand up meeting everyday, It puts No.2 people in shame. Because they don't have a concrete work-log to showcase everyday, but on alternative days, they show the right progress balancing the previous day. And mostly done with better design/code etc. Sometimes they spend most of the time on social networks & Whenever they don't have something to show, they feel a bit shrunken. I'm thinking why should we put them to shame everyday in the name of meeting, when they are completing them all, every alternative day. But my directors insist to have this practice everyday. I'm just thinking.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
Only ask about problems / impediments "during" the week; report "progress" at the "end of the week". Most problems are caused by not enough partitioning (i.e. tasks requiring more than 4 man-days); but expecting a "deliverable" EVERY DAY is ridiculous. I always gave people a week to complete a task or two; and the next week to fix it in case there was an actual problem and get back on schedule. Never failed. And involving folks in the estimating process usually drives the whole process to a successful conclusion because it was "their" estimate (no matter how ambitious it might have been). There comes a time when one deals with the peanut gallery and takes ownership of the project (if one has the confidence and cares enough).
-
Yeah we are breaking down the tasks as much as possible. This particular thing comes into picture, when the nature of task is like Writing algorithm for a module. For continuous days, the guy in context, will not touch anything, but on third day, he completes it matching with the estimate that he initially given :3 days. And it's something worth 3 days in fact. The first two days, he got nothing to share in the Sync meetings. He just says, I'm studying the problem, That's WIP, with a sheepish looks. But he goes back to his desk & spend hell lot of time in Facebook. I think somewhere in Facebook he's taking inspiration from to get into his work by mid-night of 2nd day, before coming to office. Why I'm not much affected by this usually is, The type-1 people who rigorously work, for sure take 3 days, to finish the same problem. The only thing I suffer a bit is the anxiety he creates by the 3rd day, I always doubted if he'll be able to finish it on time. 95% he's finishing it by 'EOD'. As he calls it! 'EOD' means precisely 12:00 am in his language. Not the evening 7:00, that all people log out of work.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
I believe that while it is difficult to tap into the subconscious, the subconscious is aware of problems we are contemplating, works on them, and can "surface" a solution to our conscious state as inspiration. So, yeah, "ignoring" the problem for a time actually means it's being worked on, but not consciously.
-
Different types of people in my team. 1. The one that works like terminator, without any kind of distractions, Focuses on the tasks for 8 continuous hours. Reports a perfect list of items completed in daily meeting. These are HIGHLY productive but not much creative thinking. 2. The one that slacks a bit & never come to work on time, but suggests something surprisingly new. Also gets the work done in top most perfection, but with a marginal slip of deadline, occasionally. 3. There were very few, who got the ability to focus, be productive & at the same time come up with new creative ideas. And they don't stay in the organization for long. Now the abuse called stand up meeting everyday, It puts No.2 people in shame. Because they don't have a concrete work-log to showcase everyday, but on alternative days, they show the right progress balancing the previous day. And mostly done with better design/code etc. Sometimes they spend most of the time on social networks & Whenever they don't have something to show, they feel a bit shrunken. I'm thinking why should we put them to shame everyday in the name of meeting, when they are completing them all, every alternative day. But my directors insist to have this practice everyday. I'm just thinking.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
You are lucky that you got these 3 types of team members. I am facing uninterested cribbers who are even spoiling the new employees, management expects me to fill in the shoes of all team members and specifically states that I am responsible for 80% of the work rest of the team of 12 is just for the remaining 20%... they (management) does not believe in firing anybody-we don't have a culture of firing, we don't treat people like employees but like a family- which lead to a deposit of gangue in the team as the competent members moved on... its Monday morning 5:14 still in office... Standup meetings- they are not even interested in any of these.. you have to call every individual - even if you are doing it once a month, even then they have no issue and does not need help - problems are shields for them which they can hide behind in case management ask whats going on - so they don't want them resolved. Tasks and task list: they don't want to maintain it even on paper/ google keep / teamwork/ outlook - n number of solutions tried but if somebody is not interested, tool doesn't matter... Options I have: 1. give up -a. and leave the company -tried it but they are not even willing to discuss my resignation.. -b. and be like other - can't do it 2. keep going and burn myself out 3. involve the highest level of management to get things fixed - did that received some positive response, hopefully things will work out.