Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ
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When a person is sick and it appears that he was healed by faith, it is simply a case of his or her immune system overcoming the disease, and religious zealots taking the credit for it.
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'. Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'. I'm not for one second suggesting that this is proof of divine miracle but it would be foolish to dismiss out of hand something which aids the healing process just because it's not 'science'.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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I'm ok with that... The kid dies and does not propagate the evidently rotten family genes, the parents get jailed and maybe someone learns that no, faith does not substitute medicine. Remember that we are still apes: we learn that the snake is poisonous when we see the ape who didn't know die for the bite. We learn that fire burns when we get burned by it. Want confirmation? look at children - tell them 1000 times doing something hurts and they'll do it anyway until they get hurt. It's too much time that there exist layers and layers of protection that allow the unlearned apes to survive and thrive... in the smug confidence that all the other simians are dumb. I sincerely hope in a high rise of cases like this, also I'd legally force several extremist segments of the population to actually live to what they preach. Either they drop the mask (many people are just egomaniacs which secretly do just as anybody else, except they carry political weight) or they die - so the other apes learn again what's good for their health.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
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enhzflep wrote:
Seriously, keep your fairy tales to yourself - in my experience, they are not welcomed at Code-Project.
Because the site is full of atheists and agnostics. But if you are allowed to have your atheistic view why are you mad that he is sharing the religious view? Seems very bigoted of you to not allow someone to explain the religious side of the story. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Yep, and that's just fine. When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief? How about the last time you saw an organization representing either of these two groups being made tax-exempt? The difference my friend, in this case, is that aethiests/ags don't bang on about it like this chap did and most particularly and humanly - people aren't irritated by the constant barrage of calls for people to live their lives according to the book of law, rather than the book of suppositions (not intended to be superstitions) that belongs to one mob or another. As a member of the peanut gallery, I look around and find some other members to be making more noise for the affirmative than the negative. I guess we're all wrong and in the wrong place... To be fair mate - its no secret that you and I have very different views on the matter - we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion. But you know what differentiates you and I from the member I replied to? The amount of unsolicited talking on the topic we each do - put together for a month, you and I still couldn't hold a torch to what this fella did in a week. Reasoned debate is one thing. Continually banging on about a particular thing is another. (am I making my point yet, by deliberately re-using the term banging-on?)
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Letting them die: parents refuse medical help for children in the name of Christ[^] It seems some in Idaho belong back in the Dark Ages. Parents like these do not belong in a modern, civilized society. Let them rot in jail! Why do they get away with these medieval values in a modern society? :mad: Quote: "Idaho is one of only six states that offer a faith-based shield for felony crimes such as manslaughter."
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
Seems to me that this is evolution in action; simply behavioral instead of genetic. If you let it continue, it will go away on its own. If you try to regulate it, you just make it stick around longer. Incidentally, incarceration for socially punitive purposes (rather than rehabilitative) is ACTUAL medieval philosophy.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'. Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'. I'm not for one second suggesting that this is proof of divine miracle but it would be foolish to dismiss out of hand something which aids the healing process just because it's not 'science'.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
9082365 wrote:
That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'.
This is a common misunderstanding of the placebo effect. The placebo effect does not reflect a clinical benefit to patients, it is a form of measurement error in clinical trials due to various forms of bias (procedural bias, self-reporting, etc). Secondly, prayer and faith has not been dismissed out of hand, there have been many (probably too many, given the low plausibility) studies of intercessory prayer, overall showing very mixed results probably due to mixed methodology and publication bias.
9082365 wrote:
Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'.
The opposite has also been observed - at least one RCT has shown that the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a greater degree of post-operative complications. Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health. - PubMed - NCBI[^]
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Yep, and that's just fine. When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief? How about the last time you saw an organization representing either of these two groups being made tax-exempt? The difference my friend, in this case, is that aethiests/ags don't bang on about it like this chap did and most particularly and humanly - people aren't irritated by the constant barrage of calls for people to live their lives according to the book of law, rather than the book of suppositions (not intended to be superstitions) that belongs to one mob or another. As a member of the peanut gallery, I look around and find some other members to be making more noise for the affirmative than the negative. I guess we're all wrong and in the wrong place... To be fair mate - its no secret that you and I have very different views on the matter - we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion. But you know what differentiates you and I from the member I replied to? The amount of unsolicited talking on the topic we each do - put together for a month, you and I still couldn't hold a torch to what this fella did in a week. Reasoned debate is one thing. Continually banging on about a particular thing is another. (am I making my point yet, by deliberately re-using the term banging-on?)
enhzflep wrote:
we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion.
To be honest, I don't ever recall that. I guess you must have responded with politeness and logic. :-D
enhzflep wrote:
to what this fella did in a week.
I see. So, it wasn't really this one post that you were responding to, it was an accumulation of other things. Thank you for explaining because I was struggling to figure out how your reaction was justified. But still, we are all allowed to share our opinion and in this post he only did it once.
enhzflep wrote:
When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief?
I think you're trying to suggest that religious people relentlessly try to convert you? Not sure where you live but I've had plenty of people stop by my house to share a religious message. They have always been polite. I've even had people stop by and try to sell me candy bars, coupon books, or other items. In fact, it's the salespeople that are the most rude in my experience, the religious people are quite polite. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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9082365 wrote:
That's a very simplistic analysis. We know from placebo studies that faith plays a very important part in healing even if it's only faith in your doctor's 'magic'.
This is a common misunderstanding of the placebo effect. The placebo effect does not reflect a clinical benefit to patients, it is a form of measurement error in clinical trials due to various forms of bias (procedural bias, self-reporting, etc). Secondly, prayer and faith has not been dismissed out of hand, there have been many (probably too many, given the low plausibility) studies of intercessory prayer, overall showing very mixed results probably due to mixed methodology and publication bias.
9082365 wrote:
Studies have also shown that the knowledge that you are being prayed for has a significant beneficial effect in healing even for 'unbelievers'.
The opposite has also been observed - at least one RCT has shown that the knowledge of being prayed for was associated with a greater degree of post-operative complications. Intercessory prayer for the alleviation of ill health. - PubMed - NCBI[^]
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Fisticuffs wrote:
The placebo effect does not reflect a clinical benefit to patients, it is a form of measurement error in clinical trials due to various forms of bias (procedural bias, self-reporting, etc).
Er ... ok ... I guess all the thousands of studies and experiments unrelated to clinical trials, to say nothing of the 97% of UK NHS doctors who have prescribed a placebo, could all be wrong but you'll forgive me if I'm inclined to doubt it.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Seems to me that this is evolution in action; simply behavioral instead of genetic. If you let it continue, it will go away on its own. If you try to regulate it, you just make it stick around longer. Incidentally, incarceration for socially punitive purposes (rather than rehabilitative) is ACTUAL medieval philosophy.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
Nathan Minier wrote:
is ACTUAL medieval philosophy
No, it's ancient (quite possibly prehistoric) philosophy which survived into the mediaeval period and is still going pretty strong even in the allegedly enlightened West. Whatever the intention, the fact is that the vast majority of people see 'justice' as punitive revenge primarily especially when they are the victims of a crime, with rehabilitation coming a distant third to protection of the public.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Nathan Minier wrote:
is ACTUAL medieval philosophy
No, it's ancient (quite possibly prehistoric) philosophy which survived into the mediaeval period and is still going pretty strong even in the allegedly enlightened West. Whatever the intention, the fact is that the vast majority of people see 'justice' as punitive revenge primarily especially when they are the victims of a crime, with rehabilitation coming a distant third to protection of the public.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
I always find that to be remarkable, since the stated purpose of the prison system is rehabilitation and reform. I'll take your clarification, and even bump you for it!
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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Fisticuffs wrote:
The placebo effect does not reflect a clinical benefit to patients, it is a form of measurement error in clinical trials due to various forms of bias (procedural bias, self-reporting, etc).
Er ... ok ... I guess all the thousands of studies and experiments unrelated to clinical trials, to say nothing of the 97% of UK NHS doctors who have prescribed a placebo, could all be wrong but you'll forgive me if I'm inclined to doubt it.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
9082365 wrote:
Er ... ok ... I guess all the thousands of studies and experiments unrelated to clinical trials
Citation needed? How can you examine the effect of a therapy outside of a clinical trial (without special pleading, that is)?
9082365 wrote:
, to say nothing of the 97% of UK NHS doctors who have prescribed a placebo,
That figure is misleading and originates from this paper: PLOS ONE: Placebo Use in the United Kingdom: Results from a National Survey of Primary Care Practitioners[^]
Quote:
Reasons for prescribing pure placebos varied. 55% (95% CI 51 to 59) of respondents reported prescribing pure placebos to induce possible psychological treatment effects, 33% (95% CI 30 to 36) to calm patients, 32% (95% CI 29 to 35) because the patient requested a therapy, and 31% (95% CI 28 to 34) to treat non-specific complaints.
They are not using placebos to treat disease. The act of prescribing or offering a placebo has a measurable psychological effect ONLY in self reported outcomes. The placebo itself has no effect. The "placebo effect" is measurement error in a clinical trial. Do you see the distinction?
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Yes. In the case of Idaho at least, it's a remnant of the administration of that crook and liar Nixon. Why am I not surprised?
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
What surprises me is them not yet having been struck down as unconstitutional... We are all (children included) granted a certain set of rights that cannot be infringed upon by others. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are the big three, outlined before anything that came in the Amendments. So why should it be permissible to allow someone to die (manslaughter) because of your religious beliefs? It shouldn't. Any just god would send these parents straight to Hell for doing that to their child.
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den2k88 wrote:
the parents get jailed
Except they don't.
Quote:
... laws exempt dogmatic faith healers from prosecution ... ... those who believe that prayer is the only way to cure illness are exempted from this law ...
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Now, that's stupid. Basically nobody could prevent them having another baby and letting him/her die due to them being evolutionary failures...
Quote:
... laws exempt dogmatic faith healers from prosecution ...
I guess it's easier there to swindle people, here in Italy this may cause jailing. I'll keep it in midn should I find myself without a job...
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
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Seems to me that this is evolution in action; simply behavioral instead of genetic. If you let it continue, it will go away on its own. If you try to regulate it, you just make it stick around longer. Incidentally, incarceration for socially punitive purposes (rather than rehabilitative) is ACTUAL medieval philosophy.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
It is a prevention system. A jailed person cannot repeat the same felony and that's why there exist mental institutions - to keep those people who cannot reason on their own to harm themselves or other people.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
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It is a prevention system. A jailed person cannot repeat the same felony and that's why there exist mental institutions - to keep those people who cannot reason on their own to harm themselves or other people.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey If a coffee bean is between the Earth and the Sun, is it a Java Eclipse? -- Sascha Lefèvre /xml>
My suggested reading list includes Discipline and Punish[^] by Michel Foucault. It lays out quite succinctly the ideology that implemented the current system of incarceration, with quite a bit of historical context. It doesn't hurt that it comes from one of my favorite thinkers :)
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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enhzflep wrote:
we've discussed them on more than 1 occasion.
To be honest, I don't ever recall that. I guess you must have responded with politeness and logic. :-D
enhzflep wrote:
to what this fella did in a week.
I see. So, it wasn't really this one post that you were responding to, it was an accumulation of other things. Thank you for explaining because I was struggling to figure out how your reaction was justified. But still, we are all allowed to share our opinion and in this post he only did it once.
enhzflep wrote:
When was the last time you ever had an aethiest/agnostic knock on your door and try relentlessly to sell you the virtues of disbelief?
I think you're trying to suggest that religious people relentlessly try to convert you? Not sure where you live but I've had plenty of people stop by my house to share a religious message. They have always been polite. I've even had people stop by and try to sell me candy bars, coupon books, or other items. In fact, it's the salespeople that are the most rude in my experience, the religious people are quite polite. :^)
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
They have always been polite.
By the very nature of what they're doing, rude is an overly generous description. A total stranger comes to my door and tells me my way beliefs about deity are all wrong and they know the right answer. Elephanting but-smears - that's what they are.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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RyanDev wrote:
They have always been polite.
By the very nature of what they're doing, rude is an overly generous description. A total stranger comes to my door and tells me my way beliefs about deity are all wrong and they know the right answer. Elephanting but-smears - that's what they are.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
A total stranger comes to my door and tells me about delicious donuts I've never tried and they want to share.
Ya, how dare them! :mad: :-D
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
A total stranger comes to my door and tells me about delicious donuts I've never tried and they want to share.
Ya, how dare them! :mad: :-D
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Evil reworking of my post and horrible attempt at parallelism. But, then, perhaps you've not been harassed throughout your life by these variations of the brain-dead who haunt those, such as myself, who don't believe in their basic premise. One time, in a moment of mischief, I invited a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in. How uncomfortable they looked when I turned the tables and explained what was wrong with their pagan* values. So far as I'm concerned, the 'mainstream' religion in most of the western world has not yet removed itself from idol worship. Most frightening of all: When they get the power to do so, these various religions who call themselves religions of love, do their best to exterminate any who won't join them. At least for the last couple of thousand years it's worked out that way. So - yeah - I saw your smiley - but when the target's on your back it's a bit harder to grin. * Didn't use the word pagan so as not to causing a panic.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Can we be quite clear at least that these are not mediaeval values. The history of medicine begins in that period with the monasteries creating hospitals after all. The refusal of medical treatment on the grounds of religion, which flies in the face of all scriptural logic* and church doctrine is a thoroughly modern age invention of the evangelical sects that formed in the 19th and 20th Centuries arising from an extreme reaction to the huge developments in medicine and science generally. The practice has always been condemned by the mainline Churches and denominations.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
How dare you obscure the truth with facts? Where do you think you are?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Evil reworking of my post and horrible attempt at parallelism. But, then, perhaps you've not been harassed throughout your life by these variations of the brain-dead who haunt those, such as myself, who don't believe in their basic premise. One time, in a moment of mischief, I invited a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in. How uncomfortable they looked when I turned the tables and explained what was wrong with their pagan* values. So far as I'm concerned, the 'mainstream' religion in most of the western world has not yet removed itself from idol worship. Most frightening of all: When they get the power to do so, these various religions who call themselves religions of love, do their best to exterminate any who won't join them. At least for the last couple of thousand years it's worked out that way. So - yeah - I saw your smiley - but when the target's on your back it's a bit harder to grin. * Didn't use the word pagan so as not to causing a panic.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Evil reworking of my post and horrible attempt at parallelism.
I clearly can't speak for all who proselytize, but I can say that most are simply wanting to share with you something that has made their life better. It's that simple.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Evil reworking of my post and horrible attempt at parallelism. But, then, perhaps you've not been harassed throughout your life by these variations of the brain-dead who haunt those, such as myself, who don't believe in their basic premise. One time, in a moment of mischief, I invited a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in. How uncomfortable they looked when I turned the tables and explained what was wrong with their pagan* values. So far as I'm concerned, the 'mainstream' religion in most of the western world has not yet removed itself from idol worship. Most frightening of all: When they get the power to do so, these various religions who call themselves religions of love, do their best to exterminate any who won't join them. At least for the last couple of thousand years it's worked out that way. So - yeah - I saw your smiley - but when the target's on your back it's a bit harder to grin. * Didn't use the word pagan so as not to causing a panic.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
One time, in a moment of mischief, I invited a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in. How uncomfortable they looked when I turned the tables and explained what was wrong with their pagan* values.
That is evil and cruel. I like it! :-D
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill