Do Linux developers have no taste?
-
You are missing the point and doing what most Linux apologists do--deflect. From my perspective, most Linux developers have bad taste from the kernel to the GUI and it's all related. The very attitude that "BASH is the GUI, get used to it" illustrates the problem. Why is it a positive do so something with 30 consecutive commands in BASH versus one or two in a Windows prompt? You know what's funny? Bringing over a Linux guru, doing something quick in Windows and asking "Now how do you do that in Linux." Then watching them open a shell and start typing furiously for five minutes. Yes, that just happened to me this past Friday (and it not only didn't quite do what I wanted to do in Windows, I ended up fixing the problem in Windows!)
I think you're missing a point as well. The comment wasn't so much "BASH is the GUI, get used to it." It was "If you have a problem with a Linux based GUI such as KDE or Gnome why blame the kernel (Linux)?" Some (most?) Linux gurus are purists in that the OS should handle the basic file system and hardware interfaces and that the GUI (if one even exists) is a separate entity. Remember DOS and Windows 3.x? Similar situation. As for doing something quick in Windows versus command line stuff in Linux... all depends on what you're doing. There are some things you can do via command line (Windows / Apple / Linux) that have no analog in the GUI.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
-
You are missing the point and doing what most Linux apologists do--deflect. From my perspective, most Linux developers have bad taste from the kernel to the GUI and it's all related. The very attitude that "BASH is the GUI, get used to it" illustrates the problem. Why is it a positive do so something with 30 consecutive commands in BASH versus one or two in a Windows prompt? You know what's funny? Bringing over a Linux guru, doing something quick in Windows and asking "Now how do you do that in Linux." Then watching them open a shell and start typing furiously for five minutes. Yes, that just happened to me this past Friday (and it not only didn't quite do what I wanted to do in Windows, I ended up fixing the problem in Windows!)
Not deflecting a thing; making a point. You don't use Linux for the same things as you would Windows. You use it to minimize the system footprint and for scenarios that would be challenging-to-impossible on a Windows machine. Try playing with varied multi-key encryption schemes on a logical volume in Windows for use on an ARM rig with RAM in the MBs and you'll learn that quickly. Or running a server with flexible firewall configurations based on state management. Or a single-machine LAN on no budget. If you need something trivial and in the box, then of course Windows is easier. What you get with Linux is a granularized platform with finer operational control. Powershell comes close, but doesn't quite hit the mark on that. And if understanding the appropriate tool for the appropriate job is being an apologist, then I suppose I'm guilty of that much.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
-
I used to be a Git hater too. It takes a while to understand it but I would not want to go back. As for the guys claiming to be experts, they probably keep up with the Kardashians... Its one thing to say you're an expert and another to demonstrate it. Don't give up on Git too soon.
Hogan
snorkie wrote:
Its one thing to say you're an expert and another to demonstrate it.
This is one of my complaints; arguing that the expert really isn't so and therefore the criticism isn't valid is a form of ad hominem argument. It's a form of deflection (so is pretending that a criticism of Linux is about GUIs, not Linux itself or git.) For the record, they never claimed to be experts; I've observed them and am smart enough to separate the novices from the experts.) Interestingly, the more-or-less opposite of ad homimem logical fallacy is Appeal to Authority, another common problem. BTW, from a business perspective git has been a disaster. The cost in time has vastly exceeded the price for just about any competing commercial product and those costs will keep mounting. (The two bright spots are SourceTree, which is a very well written git GUI, and that we may persuade the powers that be to switch to GitLab, which will help the process flow.)
-
Nathan Minier wrote:
They are completely separate products. One does not beget the other
So what? They had the same father, ergo the same problem: crap!
Nathan Minier wrote:
the point
I got that, now. :-O However, that's the part of the problem. BASH is it, get used to it. That attitude is why most linux software is crap.
Nathan Minier wrote:
So you're saying that you've looked at every package,
No, but I've looked at enough to see a general pattern.
Nathan Minier wrote:
All I'm saying is that people shouldn't gripe when a screwdriver isn't terribly good at pounding in nails.
Nice metaphor, but not at all what's being griped about.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
>TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: >Nice metaphor, but not at all what's being griped about. Yeah. It is.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
-
>TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: >Nice metaphor, but not at all what's being griped about. Yeah. It is.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
nanner nanner :(( :rolleyes:
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
I think you're missing a point as well. The comment wasn't so much "BASH is the GUI, get used to it." It was "If you have a problem with a Linux based GUI such as KDE or Gnome why blame the kernel (Linux)?" Some (most?) Linux gurus are purists in that the OS should handle the basic file system and hardware interfaces and that the GUI (if one even exists) is a separate entity. Remember DOS and Windows 3.x? Similar situation. As for doing something quick in Windows versus command line stuff in Linux... all depends on what you're doing. There are some things you can do via command line (Windows / Apple / Linux) that have no analog in the GUI.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
You keep deflecting. I was using A criticism of Linux GUIs as further evidence that Linux developers in general are unable to discern between good and crappy software, whether on the command line or with a GUI. That's why I brought up git and the nonsense of having to do something in 30 steps FROM THE SHELL, which takes a few commands at most on almost every other OS. Your arguments, in fact, are precisely what drives me nuts about the Linux community--the refusal to accept any criticism. That attitude pervades ALL of Linux; the exceptions are very bright spots.
-
You keep deflecting. I was using A criticism of Linux GUIs as further evidence that Linux developers in general are unable to discern between good and crappy software, whether on the command line or with a GUI. That's why I brought up git and the nonsense of having to do something in 30 steps FROM THE SHELL, which takes a few commands at most on almost every other OS. Your arguments, in fact, are precisely what drives me nuts about the Linux community--the refusal to accept any criticism. That attitude pervades ALL of Linux; the exceptions are very bright spots.
Why on Earth would I deflect? I'm not a member of any Linux community. I don't use it professionally and haven't used it much at home (certainly not much in the last 7 years). I'm not a Linux guru nor Linux developer. But... ...I am intelligent enough to see that your rant painted with a VERY WIDE brush, used rather poor logic and formed dubious conclusions. One could make the argument that the Windows community (right here on CP) acts much the same way about Windows that you say the Linux community acts about Linux. Just saying...
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
-
After working for decades on Windows, I took the plunge into Linux for my current job. What baffles me the most is how accepting Linux developers in general are of all the crap applications. No, it's worse than that; they praise the crap applications. Endlessly. And if you criticize the apps, you get heaps of denial. Then there are the UIs written by the clueless. "Yeah, but what about Windows 8," is a typical comeback. There are some superficial design choices not everyone likes in Windows 8 (mostly the start menu and lack of Aero--I don't mind either and now turn off Aero when I have to use Windows 7.) Beyond that, the UI is very consistent, renders extremely well and is magnitudes more stable than any GUI on Linux. Then there's git, which is the worse version control system I've used since Visual Source Safe. The proponents tout the rich feature set of git, ignoring the fact that the rich feature set is there to get around all the problems of a fundamentally flawed design. I work with three, honest-to-God, git experts, but a day doesn't go by when one of them says, while using it or helping someone, "Oops, I don't know what happened there." Often followed by, "this makes no sense, but you have to create a branch...." Then there's moving files via "git mv" which git later "decides" were deleted and recreated. And don't get me started on all its errors with rebases and merges (due largely to bad design.) Naturally, some Linux fan-boys are going to lose their heads over this, but I go back to the question; do Linux developers have no taste? Seriously. Are you unable to see badly rendered fonts? When you want to do something relatively common, which on Windows or Mac takes a click or two, but on Linux takes a list of dozens of detailed instructions, don't you ask why? Don't you use GDB and wonder why it sucks so bad?
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
-
Linux Mint Cinnamon seems better than most. But then I've been using it only a few days. Your rant though sounds like something from the The UNIX Hater's Handbook[^] "git" is a monster and is a perfect example of everything wrong with the *nix world.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
Linux Mint Cinnamon seems better than most
I had a sh1t of a time setting up LAN shares with that, so I dumped it and went back to Ubuntu.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
Linux Mint Cinnamon seems better than most
I had a sh1t of a time setting up LAN shares with that, so I dumped it and went back to Ubuntu.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
LAN shares
Haven't tried that yet. What version of Mint Cinnamon did you try? I'm using 17.3 Rosa.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
Mark_Wallace wrote:
LAN shares
Haven't tried that yet. What version of Mint Cinnamon did you try? I'm using 17.3 Rosa.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
I confess to not remembering. I deleted both the partition and the installation files.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
After working for decades on Windows, I took the plunge into Linux for my current job. What baffles me the most is how accepting Linux developers in general are of all the crap applications. No, it's worse than that; they praise the crap applications. Endlessly. And if you criticize the apps, you get heaps of denial. Then there are the UIs written by the clueless. "Yeah, but what about Windows 8," is a typical comeback. There are some superficial design choices not everyone likes in Windows 8 (mostly the start menu and lack of Aero--I don't mind either and now turn off Aero when I have to use Windows 7.) Beyond that, the UI is very consistent, renders extremely well and is magnitudes more stable than any GUI on Linux. Then there's git, which is the worse version control system I've used since Visual Source Safe. The proponents tout the rich feature set of git, ignoring the fact that the rich feature set is there to get around all the problems of a fundamentally flawed design. I work with three, honest-to-God, git experts, but a day doesn't go by when one of them says, while using it or helping someone, "Oops, I don't know what happened there." Often followed by, "this makes no sense, but you have to create a branch...." Then there's moving files via "git mv" which git later "decides" were deleted and recreated. And don't get me started on all its errors with rebases and merges (due largely to bad design.) Naturally, some Linux fan-boys are going to lose their heads over this, but I go back to the question; do Linux developers have no taste? Seriously. Are you unable to see badly rendered fonts? When you want to do something relatively common, which on Windows or Mac takes a click or two, but on Linux takes a list of dozens of detailed instructions, don't you ask why? Don't you use GDB and wonder why it sucks so bad?
Linux is good for serving you not for looking at , I use it as a streaming media server and file server and wouldn't use anything else, I have set up several music servers using the humble but very capable Raspberry Pis using USB drives as the media storage and they perform flawlessly - pretty they ain't but they work.
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
-
I confess to not remembering. I deleted both the partition and the installation files.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
That's probably best. :-D
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
After working for decades on Windows, I took the plunge into Linux for my current job. What baffles me the most is how accepting Linux developers in general are of all the crap applications. No, it's worse than that; they praise the crap applications. Endlessly. And if you criticize the apps, you get heaps of denial. Then there are the UIs written by the clueless. "Yeah, but what about Windows 8," is a typical comeback. There are some superficial design choices not everyone likes in Windows 8 (mostly the start menu and lack of Aero--I don't mind either and now turn off Aero when I have to use Windows 7.) Beyond that, the UI is very consistent, renders extremely well and is magnitudes more stable than any GUI on Linux. Then there's git, which is the worse version control system I've used since Visual Source Safe. The proponents tout the rich feature set of git, ignoring the fact that the rich feature set is there to get around all the problems of a fundamentally flawed design. I work with three, honest-to-God, git experts, but a day doesn't go by when one of them says, while using it or helping someone, "Oops, I don't know what happened there." Often followed by, "this makes no sense, but you have to create a branch...." Then there's moving files via "git mv" which git later "decides" were deleted and recreated. And don't get me started on all its errors with rebases and merges (due largely to bad design.) Naturally, some Linux fan-boys are going to lose their heads over this, but I go back to the question; do Linux developers have no taste? Seriously. Are you unable to see badly rendered fonts? When you want to do something relatively common, which on Windows or Mac takes a click or two, but on Linux takes a list of dozens of detailed instructions, don't you ask why? Don't you use GDB and wonder why it sucks so bad?
-
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
I don't if it's funny or ironic, but I just had to do that.
-
That's probably best. :-D
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
Subsidiary annoying fact: My laptop and one of my desktops are dual-boot with Ubuntu. If I let the Linux boot manager handle things, Windows (7 & 8.1) can't start at all.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Subsidiary annoying fact: My laptop and one of my desktops are dual-boot with Ubuntu. If I let the Linux boot manager handle things, Windows (7 & 8.1) can't start at all.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Well, that's because the Linux boot manager doesn't play well with others while the Windows one does. Typical Linux style hack.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
Well, that's because the Linux boot manager doesn't play well with others while the Windows one does. Typical Linux style hack.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
Let's be honest: if Anything has to play well with others, it's a boot manager. What are they thinking? Nothing I want to hear, I'll bet.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Let's be honest: if Anything has to play well with others, it's a boot manager. What are they thinking? Nothing I want to hear, I'll bet.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Indeed.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
-
After working for decades on Windows, I took the plunge into Linux for my current job. What baffles me the most is how accepting Linux developers in general are of all the crap applications. No, it's worse than that; they praise the crap applications. Endlessly. And if you criticize the apps, you get heaps of denial. Then there are the UIs written by the clueless. "Yeah, but what about Windows 8," is a typical comeback. There are some superficial design choices not everyone likes in Windows 8 (mostly the start menu and lack of Aero--I don't mind either and now turn off Aero when I have to use Windows 7.) Beyond that, the UI is very consistent, renders extremely well and is magnitudes more stable than any GUI on Linux. Then there's git, which is the worse version control system I've used since Visual Source Safe. The proponents tout the rich feature set of git, ignoring the fact that the rich feature set is there to get around all the problems of a fundamentally flawed design. I work with three, honest-to-God, git experts, but a day doesn't go by when one of them says, while using it or helping someone, "Oops, I don't know what happened there." Often followed by, "this makes no sense, but you have to create a branch...." Then there's moving files via "git mv" which git later "decides" were deleted and recreated. And don't get me started on all its errors with rebases and merges (due largely to bad design.) Naturally, some Linux fan-boys are going to lose their heads over this, but I go back to the question; do Linux developers have no taste? Seriously. Are you unable to see badly rendered fonts? When you want to do something relatively common, which on Windows or Mac takes a click or two, but on Linux takes a list of dozens of detailed instructions, don't you ask why? Don't you use GDB and wonder why it sucks so bad?
How many years has Linux been around? Still trying to figure out why it exists at all, let alone why some people think it's the cat's meow.
We won't sit down. We won't shut up. We won't go quietly away. YouTube and My Mu[sic], Films and Windows Programs, etc.
