ODC's What you think ?
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Having recently seen work that I could have done being given to developers in India, I felt a little betrayed. But that is just a natural self-preservation reaction. I have the standard human reaction to look out for myself, my family and friends first. So anything which could effect the standard of living is always bad. (ie. losing jobs) Saying that though, the guys who did the work did a top notch job - they were professionals and as another pro I respect the work they did. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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What have been your experiances ? Do they assume at the outset that you are capable person or it takes some proving to earn that ? Mine - they are distinctly uncomfortable, unsure of our capabilities. It takes a lot of time to earn their confidence.
Ravish wrote: What have been your experiances ? Do they assume at the outset that you are capable person or it takes some proving to earn that ? We don't have to work harder than the competition because we are offshore. No "offshore is no risk" convincing is required as we do have local technicians as well for onsite work. Certainly if the entire company is offshore then I as a buyer would worry. But with our arrangement we get the cost saving and peace of mind. We have yet to meet a client who says "We don't use offshore, we only use local" in terms of being patriotic. Bottom line is; Money talks. We are cheaper than the competition and equals in terms of features, reliability and processes. So it is a no brainer most of the time. Also note that I am talking about us being South African and the buyers British. So there is not a huge culture difference. We speak their language, know their customs, like Proper Sports (Rugby, Cricket, Football) etc. etc.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Roger Wright wrote: Econ 101 Ugh, I hate economics. All I have to say is D is for done. X| Brad Jennings "You're mom is nice. Mind if I go out with her?" - Jörgen Sigvardsson
Without a basic grounding in Economics, no one is qualified to vote for any measure on any ballot, as all political choices have economic impacts. Ignorance is a good excuse for not voting, but not a valid excuse for casting an uninformed vote. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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Ravish wrote: What have been your experiances ? Do they assume at the outset that you are capable person or it takes some proving to earn that ? We don't have to work harder than the competition because we are offshore. No "offshore is no risk" convincing is required as we do have local technicians as well for onsite work. Certainly if the entire company is offshore then I as a buyer would worry. But with our arrangement we get the cost saving and peace of mind. We have yet to meet a client who says "We don't use offshore, we only use local" in terms of being patriotic. Bottom line is; Money talks. We are cheaper than the competition and equals in terms of features, reliability and processes. So it is a no brainer most of the time. Also note that I am talking about us being South African and the buyers British. So there is not a huge culture difference. We speak their language, know their customs, like Proper Sports (Rugby, Cricket, Football) etc. etc.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: No "offshore is no risk" convincing is required as we do have local technicians as well for onsite work. This is surprising. During the last India-Pak standoff, we had to do lot of convincing, though we had few people onsite and an emergency plan to relocate all project members to onsite. So how do you explain, scenarios like what happens when riots/war break out? How do you sync code between onsite/offshore ? etc etc
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I wouldn't blame the corporate decision makers though. The share holders( ie the american public) expect profits. So the corporate guys do what they got to do. And the part about American competitiveness, I didn't understand. Expect a very few companies, the kind of work that gets down here can be classified as little above call center, back office processing. Very few turnkey big developments, No product development, may be product maintainence and no high end consulting. Essentially the space we occupy is the bottom most in the value chain.
That's true, Ravish. But the hatred is based on a numbers game - the number of IT jobs lost, regardless of the function actually performed. A lot of good talent here gets abandoned rather than retrained in newer technologies, though, because the newer tech can be had more cheaply offshore. The net jobs lost are all lumped together, so the numbers look worse than they might really be. A lot of programming jobs are being outsourced to other countries, in addition to the mundane work you mention, and a lot of foreign workers are being imported to fill jobs that Americans can do simply because they're used to a lower standard of living and will work as virtual slaves. I feel that this situation abuses not only American tech workers who are done out of a career, but the foreign replacements who are cheated of the life they believed they would find here, as well. I read daily about the lack of skilled technical workers in this country, and see this used to justify outsourcing and H-1B worker importation. Yet every job I see advertised in the IT field demands skills that are marginal, but absolute. They ask for skills that I and any of the people I know in our field could easily master with a few weeks training and a month or two of practice. But they refuse to grant an interview to any applicant who doesn't have the requisite knowledge on his/her resume. This farcical, entirely fabricated lack of skills is used as an excuse to look elsewhere, and it is ultimately self-destructive to this country. I was raised and trained to manage Win-Win scenarios; what I see today in the US job market, and perhaps the international market, is a lot of Lose-Lose transactions. I find it depressing... "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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Paul Watson wrote: No "offshore is no risk" convincing is required as we do have local technicians as well for onsite work. This is surprising. During the last India-Pak standoff, we had to do lot of convincing, though we had few people onsite and an emergency plan to relocate all project members to onsite. So how do you explain, scenarios like what happens when riots/war break out? How do you sync code between onsite/offshore ? etc etc
Well yes of course trying to convince someone to use a company that may be wiped out in a nuclear blast must be rather difficult. Same with using offshore workers from any unstable country, it would be harder to convince. For us though it is not a problem, South Africa is stable enough. Ravish wrote: How do you sync code between onsite/offshore We do web applications and most of our clients use our hosting facilities (in London.) So 90% of our code goes straight onto our hosting server to which we have full FTP and remote access. We also plan the releases carefully, no whilly nilly FTPing of code and restoring of databases. We set aside a day at each milestone to upload the code/database, ensure rights are correct, ensure domains and IP addresses work etc. Normally it only takes an hour, two at most. However the day gives us flexibility if something does go wrong. All these plans we communicate to the client, ensuring that they can see we are methodical and reliable. Certainly if you are doing Windows apps then rollout is harder than for webapps. We don't do Windows apps though.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Without a basic grounding in Economics, no one is qualified to vote for any measure on any ballot, as all political choices have economic impacts. Ignorance is a good excuse for not voting, but not a valid excuse for casting an uninformed vote. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
Are you serious? Or just pushing buttons?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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ODCs steal jobs from Americans. The hatred for them here is misdirected, however. Companies use them to save money, and in the view of short-sighted management and shareholders this makes sense; the companies that use them should rightfully be the target of our ire, not the providers of a service which is in demand. Anyone who feels it is the fault of the ODCs that our job market is in the dumpster should retake Econ 101 until they understand the law of supply and demand. The fault lies entirely upon the shoulders of corporate decision makers who see such solutions as rational, ignoring the long term destruction wrought upon American competitiveness and the domestic economy. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
Funny how I am pro Buy South African and pro offshore development. Being in an underdog country allows me to survive that paradox (because offshore dev benefits me.) Soon as we climb to high up the ladder though I am sure I will start bitching about Mozambiqueans taking IT jobs from South Africans. :) This is all yet another problem with the idea of countries and borders.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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That's true, Ravish. But the hatred is based on a numbers game - the number of IT jobs lost, regardless of the function actually performed. A lot of good talent here gets abandoned rather than retrained in newer technologies, though, because the newer tech can be had more cheaply offshore. The net jobs lost are all lumped together, so the numbers look worse than they might really be. A lot of programming jobs are being outsourced to other countries, in addition to the mundane work you mention, and a lot of foreign workers are being imported to fill jobs that Americans can do simply because they're used to a lower standard of living and will work as virtual slaves. I feel that this situation abuses not only American tech workers who are done out of a career, but the foreign replacements who are cheated of the life they believed they would find here, as well. I read daily about the lack of skilled technical workers in this country, and see this used to justify outsourcing and H-1B worker importation. Yet every job I see advertised in the IT field demands skills that are marginal, but absolute. They ask for skills that I and any of the people I know in our field could easily master with a few weeks training and a month or two of practice. But they refuse to grant an interview to any applicant who doesn't have the requisite knowledge on his/her resume. This farcical, entirely fabricated lack of skills is used as an excuse to look elsewhere, and it is ultimately self-destructive to this country. I was raised and trained to manage Win-Win scenarios; what I see today in the US job market, and perhaps the international market, is a lot of Lose-Lose transactions. I find it depressing... "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
Roger Wright wrote: A lot of good talent here gets abandoned rather than retrained in newer technologies, though, because the newer tech can be had more cheaply offshore. Becoz of the service oriented nature of the business, most of the companies here have a decent training program. Generally professionals here are very aware of the new technology trends and are adapters to them. But the downside of it, none of us get to become functional (domain) experts, which means we never move up the chain and are forever living with the fear, whether we would become obsolete with our tech skills. Are there any attempts made by professionals in US to encourage employers or govt to contribute to their retraining needs ?
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Without a basic grounding in Economics, no one is qualified to vote for any measure on any ballot, as all political choices have economic impacts. Ignorance is a good excuse for not voting, but not a valid excuse for casting an uninformed vote. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
I can't say that I agree with your statement but I'm too tired to care about arguing over it. All I will say is that there is a lot more to politics than just economics. I think the reason I hate economics so much is that I've never had a decent economics teacher. The first one I had (I dropped the course) had lectures that resembled incoherent rambling, often contradicted himself, and put trick questions on the tests. My notes consisted of about a half page of useless notes and about 5 pages of scribbled drawings I made in order to stay awake. The second one knew his stuff well, but assumed that the class did too. He skipped over key information because he assumed that we already knew it and put stuff on the tests that was neither in the lecture nor the book. I'm proud to say I got a D in that class, it is by far the hardest class I've ever taken. Brad Jennings "You're mom is nice. Mind if I go out with her?" - Jörgen Sigvardsson
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I work for a Offshore Development center (a misnomer actually). So what is the general opinion in the west like !!
1. As all others mentioned cost effective 2. Decentralizing production environment 3. To use the time diff effectively 4. To satisfy the clients about their close geographical presence 5. Risk mitigation This is what i could think off. Cheers, Venkatraman Kalyanam Chennai - India "Being Excellent is not a skill, it is an attitude"
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I can't say that I agree with your statement but I'm too tired to care about arguing over it. All I will say is that there is a lot more to politics than just economics. I think the reason I hate economics so much is that I've never had a decent economics teacher. The first one I had (I dropped the course) had lectures that resembled incoherent rambling, often contradicted himself, and put trick questions on the tests. My notes consisted of about a half page of useless notes and about 5 pages of scribbled drawings I made in order to stay awake. The second one knew his stuff well, but assumed that the class did too. He skipped over key information because he assumed that we already knew it and put stuff on the tests that was neither in the lecture nor the book. I'm proud to say I got a D in that class, it is by far the hardest class I've ever taken. Brad Jennings "You're mom is nice. Mind if I go out with her?" - Jörgen Sigvardsson
:laugh: I know what you mean - I've had both kinds of teachers, and not just in Economics! You may well have learned more than you think, as grades are often a better measure of how well you can parrot the teacher's ideas than how thoroughly you understand a subject. Of course there's a lot more to politics than economics, but all political choices have economic effects, and the ninnies will always vote for more tea and circuses while whining about the taxes they pay. It's human nature, only to be overcome by education and experience... I prefer education, and experience is often a painful way to gain knowledge! "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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Are you serious? Or just pushing buttons?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
I rarely push buttons, Paul, though it is fun once in a while.;P The choices we make, especially those political choices we express through the ballot box, always have economic consequences. People who demand higher minimum wages always seem appalled that prices go up - ignorance. People who cry "there ought to be a law..." rather than seeking causes and relieving them are the first to whine about their high tax burden - ignorance. People who vote at every turn to block new bond financing for public works write angry letters to the editor to complain about the terrible state of public buildings and roads - ignorance. Economics is a subject that should be taught from grade school, alongside reading and math, not put off and condensed into a single college class that 90% of the population will never take. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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Roger Wright wrote: A lot of good talent here gets abandoned rather than retrained in newer technologies, though, because the newer tech can be had more cheaply offshore. Becoz of the service oriented nature of the business, most of the companies here have a decent training program. Generally professionals here are very aware of the new technology trends and are adapters to them. But the downside of it, none of us get to become functional (domain) experts, which means we never move up the chain and are forever living with the fear, whether we would become obsolete with our tech skills. Are there any attempts made by professionals in US to encourage employers or govt to contribute to their retraining needs ?
Ravish wrote: Are there any attempts made by professionals in US to encourage employers or govt to contribute to their retraining needs ? Yes, but they have been largely futile. It's much easier to lay off employees and hire the skill of the day than it is to train existing workers in a new skill. Professional employees have little influence over management here, and it sounds like the same is true in your neighborhood. I don't see the situation as healthy for either of us. I've always believed that employees are assets, and investment in training them is good for business. But in today's market, companies treat employees as expense items to be used and tossed out like a worn pencil sharpener. In the long run I believe that this attitude is disastrous for the employees and companies alike, no matter which country practices it. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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I rarely push buttons, Paul, though it is fun once in a while.;P The choices we make, especially those political choices we express through the ballot box, always have economic consequences. People who demand higher minimum wages always seem appalled that prices go up - ignorance. People who cry "there ought to be a law..." rather than seeking causes and relieving them are the first to whine about their high tax burden - ignorance. People who vote at every turn to block new bond financing for public works write angry letters to the editor to complain about the terrible state of public buildings and roads - ignorance. Economics is a subject that should be taught from grade school, alongside reading and math, not put off and condensed into a single college class that 90% of the population will never take. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
You are right about how economics should be taught right from grade 1. It is a vital lifeskill which will help people when they enter the working world. However making it a requirement for voting would be a problem. Obviously there is the discremination side which won't go down well at all (disadvantaged vs. advantaged all over again.) But also your vote defines more than just the economic future. Art, health, education, religion etc. are all affected by the choices we make. The artists will want Art 101 to be a basic requirement for voting, Philosophy 101 the philosophers will demand, Islam/Christianity/Zen/Judaism/Hindu/etc. 42 pious folk will insist, Child Rearing 202 concerned parents will cry. etc. etc. Who would decide what the requirements are? Still, teach economics please! I know I have suffered from not having been taught the realities, only finding them out the hard way (i.e. debt.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Funny how I am pro Buy South African and pro offshore development. Being in an underdog country allows me to survive that paradox (because offshore dev benefits me.) Soon as we climb to high up the ladder though I am sure I will start bitching about Mozambiqueans taking IT jobs from South Africans. :) This is all yet another problem with the idea of countries and borders.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Soon as we climb to high up the ladder though I am sure I will start bitching about Mozambiqueans taking IT jobs from South Africans. Yup! But it won't be the Mozabiqueans' fault, rather it will be due to the 'penny wise, pound foolish' decisions of the companies that are buying the talent. "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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You are right about how economics should be taught right from grade 1. It is a vital lifeskill which will help people when they enter the working world. However making it a requirement for voting would be a problem. Obviously there is the discremination side which won't go down well at all (disadvantaged vs. advantaged all over again.) But also your vote defines more than just the economic future. Art, health, education, religion etc. are all affected by the choices we make. The artists will want Art 101 to be a basic requirement for voting, Philosophy 101 the philosophers will demand, Islam/Christianity/Zen/Judaism/Hindu/etc. 42 pious folk will insist, Child Rearing 202 concerned parents will cry. etc. etc. Who would decide what the requirements are? Still, teach economics please! I know I have suffered from not having been taught the realities, only finding them out the hard way (i.e. debt.)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
I'm not suggesting that we make it a requirement - that way madness lies. I only observe that people who vote without a knowledge of economics aren't capable of making an informed choice. Competence has never been a requirement of political franchise here, nor should it be - who sets the standard? I propose that we fill that intellectual void by emphasizing knowledge more and that we provide it earlier! Of course, changing the educational system will require a vote, with predictable results...:( "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom