As a developer, should I know...
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SOAP *shudder* Had to deal with it in iOS environment. Talk about pushing the envelope... :doh:
Ri_ wrote:
SOAP shudder
+1
Eric
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Good points, but where do you draw the line?
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
At this stage, draw the line when you have broad enough knowledge to research the deep knowledge. Since your focus is web applications you should have a fair understanding of the entire stack (which includes protocols, security, and encryption) so that you can make intelligent design decisions without googling everything. That way leads to madness.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Benjamin Disraeli
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
As a professional programmer, you are responsible for the entire application. If it talks to the outside world, that includes how it communicates. The system administrator is responsible for the system he controls. If that system is insufficient, it is your duty to correct that deficiency. You cannot make this evaluation without being competent in best practices for everything your application does. Now, if you are a junior dev, you should have someone above you with this responsibility. But if you're a senior, it's on you.
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You are describing yourself as a developer but really asking an architectural question (or really describing an architectural question that your team lead asked of you). Strictly speaking, as a developer, you've probably already done your job... but for career purposes, it would be good to know if security is required and whether or not to use TLS/SSL or something else. If so, it should be parlayed into a functional requirement and funded/time budgeted as such. This is likely a feature creep item.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
In the long term of a career, it makes sense to have some understanding of a wide variety of things. The more diverse things we know about, the easier it is to learn new things -- after a point the "new" things often relate to things we already know, so there is not as much to learn. What to learn and how deeply? As others have said, that's a personal choice. I learn things I need to know and things I want to know. When I need to know something I evaluate if I'm going to use it again, and if I foresee a future, I dig deeper than what is needed to do the job. For things that interest me? I dig as deep as I have interest. It's a guessing game -- I've invested many hours into topics that I thought had a future (but didn't), and skipped others that would have taken my career in a different direction. But overall things have worked out so I have no real complaints. The side effect is that I'm pretty good at Trivial Pursuit. :laugh:
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
The way I see it is no you don't absolutely have to but if you want to thrive in your environment you probably want to understand the environment your thriving in. Likewise if you're going to be interacting with people who are dealing with this a given related technology that isn't core to your efforts, while you don't necessarily 'need' to become an authority on the topic, it does become highly conducive to become informed to the point of being conversant and able to identify the street signs in the neighborhood your driving though without having to stop and bother the locals all the time. This not only earns you respect from the locals it also prevents you from focusing their ire as well which at times can potentially lead to other pitfalls. Peripheral knowledge is the socialization of work, so drink it in, take little sips, being careful not to get trapped into becoming a pseudo SME due to budgetary restraint and some manager realizing you know more than someone else about something you're not ready or willing to dive headlong into.
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
If you work as a developer for the US government you probably do. Where I work, we have to get CompTIA Security+ certified per DOD 8570 regulations. It's a royal pain in the butt because it's all about networking, security, encryption, etc - 80% of which we don't use as developers/database programmers. But we have to do it nonetheless or else we can't work here.
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kmoorevs wrote:
but it sounds like you are about to get an introduction anyway
Not really, I can't really figure it all out AND stay within budget. Everything is running on one server, so TLS isn't a requirement anyway :laugh: I had my introduction a few weeks ago with a WCF SOAP service. Apparently SOAP requires TLS (and far worse, XML!) :sigh:
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Sander Rossel wrote: Apparently SOAP requires TLS (and far worse, XML!) SOAP does not require TLS, though it is usually a good idea to use it and many applications require it. There are far worse things to deal with than XML (like ASN.1) and besides, you usually are usually not directly dealing directly with the XML but letting a framework marshall between your business objects and XML, though in the case of WCF, the framework abstraction may be more complicated than the XML.
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
RabbitMQ has inbuilt support for TLS. As of RabbitMQ 3.4.0, SSLv3 is disabled automatically to prevent the POODLE attack. You should just read the RabbmitMQ docs[^]. :) Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
How many developers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None, it's a hardware problem.
But in all seriousness, why not know the stuff? Everything you learn improves you as an individual and makes you more valuable. Always keep improving yourself!
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
What is so hard about saying: "Let me get back to you"? I use it all the time in my dealings with (paying) customers. No one has ever had issues. What no one likes, is off-the-cuff answers that are questionable. Or, you can say it's not in your job description; but that usually only works in union shops.
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What is so hard about saying: "Let me get back to you"? I use it all the time in my dealings with (paying) customers. No one has ever had issues. What no one likes, is off-the-cuff answers that are questionable. Or, you can say it's not in your job description; but that usually only works in union shops.
Gerry Schmitz wrote:
Let me get back to you
Because finding the answer takes way too much time that I don't have :) I'm never off-the-cuff, questionable, or sticking to my job description :laugh:
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Maybe it's because I work as a freelance but I have the vision that a developer must provide solutions no matter what.
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Maybe it's because I work as a freelance but I have the vision that a developer must provide solutions no matter what.
That's a bit shortsighted... If I asked you to create something in a language you never used, using a database you've never heard off, including some libraries you didn't know exist... Sure, you COULD come up with something, but you know it's going to take you a lot of time to learn all that stuff and the result will not be top notch quality. The only fair answer would be "sorry, but I can't help you with that" :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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How many developers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None, it's a hardware problem.
But in all seriousness, why not know the stuff? Everything you learn improves you as an individual and makes you more valuable. Always keep improving yourself!
I'm still figuring out whether to learn Python, Scala, Redis, Neo4j, .NET Core, baking a pie, driving a bus... You see there's a problem with learning everything :) Although I agree learning about some networking makes lots of sense.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
From my standpoint, this is where consultants come in. Find an expert, or someone with a lot of SOLID experience here, and pay them to give you the information and the configuration settings you will need. The problem today is that most companies are making decisions WAY BEYOND their abilities. Kinda like Clinton using a non-secured blackberry to check her own email server while using A CHINESE network connection. Really. If TLS was not setup, then her password went through in clear text. OMG. But companies do this all the time. It is why I like the new push to use SSL Everywhere, all the time. Everything should be encrypted when it is going over the wire.
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RabbitMQ has inbuilt support for TLS. As of RabbitMQ 3.4.0, SSLv3 is disabled automatically to prevent the POODLE attack. You should just read the RabbmitMQ docs[^]. :) Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
I read it ;) But setting up TLS is a bit tricky... First of all I'm not an admin on the server and second the examples in the docs are Linux while I'm on Windows. My answer was: Yes, we can use TLS, but we don't have to as the service is not reachable from the outside (all localhost) :D
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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Gerry Schmitz wrote:
Let me get back to you
Because finding the answer takes way too much time that I don't have :) I'm never off-the-cuff, questionable, or sticking to my job description :laugh:
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
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That's a bit shortsighted... If I asked you to create something in a language you never used, using a database you've never heard off, including some libraries you didn't know exist... Sure, you COULD come up with something, but you know it's going to take you a lot of time to learn all that stuff and the result will not be top notch quality. The only fair answer would be "sorry, but I can't help you with that" :)
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
I live in a third world country. My customers need solutions. I know I can't always provide top notch quality but when I can provide good quality I tell them and when I cannot I recommend someone who does. My point is that I am a developer who is not afraid to get his hands dirty in servers, networks, configurations and the like. Cheers!
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
Sander Rossel wrote:
Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins?
My opinion, of course you should know, maybe not now, but eventually. You were tasked with getting RabbitMQ running, therefore you are now the expert that will be answering those sorts of questions when they come up. So you don't know when your lead asked? Fine, go figure it out. After all, someone has to know to be able to advise the sysadmins. Your lead clearly thought that someone should be you, and I completely agree with them.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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A bit about networking? Well, obviously I should as it was required of me today, but in general... My assignment was simple enough, we wanted to use RabbitMQ and I was the one who should get it to work. No problem, I installed Erlang and RabbitMQ, read some tutorials, wrote some client C# code, and I was able to sent to, and receive from, the RabbitMQ queue. Now here's the thing, my team lead then asked me what protocol did it use, should we use SSL/TLS, and how do we set it up? The hell should I know! I write code, I don't configure servers, create certificates, have them signed, etc. Or should I know? Common knowledge, or stuff left to sysadmins? I'm interested in opinions.
Read my (free) ebook Object-Oriented Programming in C# Succinctly. Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need. Or read my articles here on CodeProject.
Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability. — Edsger W. Dijkstra
Regards, Sander
I read through all of the responses to your post and I have a completely opposite opinion for you. If you are a software developer and that is what you are specializing in than you already have a huge knowledge base to learn and work with. Trying to cross lines into networking and\or infrastructure, which have their own huge knowledge bases has been found to be highly inefficient making much of the results ineffective in the long term. A study was done on just this issue many years ago when networking was a more compartmentalized function due to the limited set of options we had. Even then it was found that software developers and software engineers would also run into serious issues when attempting to work with two completely different knowledge bases. As a result, the analysis found that it simply couldn't be done very easily. Today, of course, we have different environment but the emphasis has gone from 4th generation style development environments back to 3rd generation or even maybe second generation environments where the level of detail is larger exponentially. The commenters who have replied that yes you should have knowledge of this additional detail in your tool-kits are promoting the idea that developers should be an "every man" type of professional, which is categorically impossible. However, this pressure has evolved as a result of different viewpoints towards the way development should be accomplished; and in this case it is to be done by turning the clock backwards. The idea for example, of ASP.NET WebForms was to make web development far easier than it was with "Classic ASP", which it did. The same held true for standard Windows Forms, which allowed developers to use other languages than C++ to develop desktop applications. Today development has now promoted so many paths to getting a task done that it is almost impossible to decide which one will secure one's career in the long term. The answer everyone provides for this is to know just about everything like it is something very easy to do and anyone should be able to do it. Well, you can't. Nonetheless, the requirements of you maintaining your position may also depend on how flexible you are in such situations so it may behoove you to develop a proposal that suggests bringing in a specialist as needed to assist with you such additional complexities if you cannot afford the time to learn this material on your own due to other pressing responsibilities. The real problem you are facing is that the younger generations
