Why any less wild?
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Probably cannot be proved, but there is the certainty that you will find the answer to the existence of god. About the aliens you will never know for sure :)
solon wrote: but there is the certainty that you will find the answer to the existence of god *Paul quickly starts believing in a God who does not reveal himself after death, just to piss solon off of course* ;) Good point though in terms of the common beliefs.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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Neil Gaiman's fantasy novel, American Gods[^], suggests Gods exist based on human worship. Meaning the more people worship a God the stronger he becomes. It's like they exist because we need them to exist. We have a need to explain things, and when observation or science fails, we create a God to explain the unexplainable in the world. It's as probable as anything to me. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
brianwelsch wrote: suggests Gods exist based on human worship. Meaning the more people worship a God the stronger he becomes. Aaahh so that is where Terry Pratchette got his Small Gods idea from. Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself by reading AG rather than spouting on about a hilarious but less intelectual book. :-D brianwelsch wrote: It's as probable as anything to me. Like a flipping endless tree we think.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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I am just curious here so go sprinkle that holy water on your geraniums; Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? None can be currently proved. All three have thousands of years of stories, myths, legends and records. Yet somehow a God fearing Christian or eastward praying Muslim thinks aliens are a total crock, as fanciful as Santa Claus. Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me than the thought of other intelligent life eeking out and existance as we are somewhere in the universe. No super powers, no omniscience, no warp drive, they don't even have to have pointy ears. Just curious :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me Well, that's what it comes down to though, doesn't it? If everyone thought like Paul Watson, then we would all be horribly sick of photography the world would be quite a different place. Thankfully (?), we do not, and so some of us are free to believe in God, gods, Fat Saints Delivering Gifts, and Fresh Cheese Curds as the Most Perfect Food. Consider the sum of human knowledge. Can any of us, with our finite intelligence and lifespans, ever hope to know and understand all that our fellow men know and understand? No. Thus we must trust others to some extent in order to make use of their knowledge and understanding. Who you trust has a lot to do with what you believe...
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
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I am just curious here so go sprinkle that holy water on your geraniums; Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? None can be currently proved. All three have thousands of years of stories, myths, legends and records. Yet somehow a God fearing Christian or eastward praying Muslim thinks aliens are a total crock, as fanciful as Santa Claus. Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me than the thought of other intelligent life eeking out and existance as we are somewhere in the universe. No super powers, no omniscience, no warp drive, they don't even have to have pointy ears. Just curious :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
From the very beginning of the Bible, Man has occupied a central position. God created all the animals and then created mankind to rule over them. Religion revolves around the story of mankind and it's relationship to God. So, when we discovered that humans were surprisingly apelike, it was immediately rejected by believers (because we're not animals! we're above them, created separately by God). Humans share 98.7% of our base-pairs with the chimpanzee. But, scientific facts are not to be elevated over the special revelation of God, they argue. And, Christianity readily embraced the Aristolean idea of a geo-centric solar system. Again, because of the belief that mankind was center-stage in this large story about mankind and god. For a long time after the Copernicus model, some people were still proposing alternet theories about planetary motion which involved the earth in the center of the solar system, and the planets and sun revolving in strange eliptical orbits which just happened to follow the same paths as a solar-centric model. To propose the idea of aliens means that human civilization is again removed from central stage in this big story of God and Humankind. (It should be noted that some Christians have turned the possiblity of aliens around and said, "why should God limit his creativity to one planet?" Thus, changing the debate about aliens from "the centrality of mankind and the religious story" into "God is greater than we imagine". If aliens are found, there is little doubt that this shift in thinking about the subject will occur.) ( Of course, the reality of evolution, the solar-centric solar system, and the existence of aliens doesn't necessarily invalidate the reality of the religious story - but it's just a little too close for comfort for many people, so it creates resistence. ) [Edit] A second factor is probably the fact that the perception of an idea is influenced by our perception of the believers in that idea. There are quite a few people running around talking about meeting aliens which seem rather nutty (have you noticed that rather odd jumpsuit that the Raelian leader wears?). The result is that the idea of aliens doesn't get much respect because we judge ideas based on the perception of people who believe those ideas. Religion, on the other hand, is believed by lots of normal people, so it doesn't suffer from the same problem. You can point out specific cults and religious ideas, though, that do suffer from the strangeness of their followers. [\Edit] ---
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brianwelsch wrote: suggests Gods exist based on human worship. Meaning the more people worship a God the stronger he becomes. Aaahh so that is where Terry Pratchette got his Small Gods idea from. Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself by reading AG rather than spouting on about a hilarious but less intelectual book. :-D brianwelsch wrote: It's as probable as anything to me. Like a flipping endless tree we think.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Terry Pratchette AFAIK, no ending 'e' Paul Watson wrote: Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself Watch out for vertigo...
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
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I assume though that they don't mean there is literally a God gene. More it is a result of the people our genes have made us, social, dependant on a begining and end thought process, needing an afterlife to make the nowlife worthwhile etc. So to fill those needs we create God, and it is those needs which are universal. I wonder though then wether those of us who do "believe"* in aliens are predisposed to it. Surely if there are genes that predispose leanings towards a creator then there can be genes which lean us towards believing that we are not alone? I see though that a creator is more important to invent for us to figure out the order of things than to invent that we are not alone. Good post Chris, thanks. *"I want to believe"
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: assume though that they don't mean there is literally a God gene. right. just like there's no 'language' gene, but humans everywhere have a spoken language (all equally sophisticated, no less). our brains are simply wired to produce spoken langauge. Paul Watson wrote: social ah yes, i forgot that bit. religion is obviously a great excuse to form a group, and to impose rules. so, it acts as a social glue, a social framework as well as a scapegoat & unreliable concierge service. Paul Watson wrote: I see though that a creator is more important to invent for us to figure out the order of things than to invent that we are not alone. yeah, that sounds about right. we can use god(s) or animals as our imaginary friends, we don't need extra-terrestrial aliens. -c
Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler
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Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? maybe off-topic, but i don't care: i've read some articles lately that hint that humans have a genetic pre-disposition towards religions and beliefs in powers greater than what we can see. such beliefs allow us to assign blame for events we don't understand, and gives us a target for pleading when we want something. even today, god is assumed to be beyond the laws of physics, logic and mathematics (but as man learns more, god gets blamed for less and less). since every culture (and all the extinct cultures that we've ever discovered, i think) has a religion of some kind, there is almost certainly a genetic root for it. i am of course assuming that all of the world's gods do not actually exist and therefore aren't imprinting the need to worship them on humans at birth. (try to tie this back to the topic.. can i do it?) aliens, on the other hand, are simply life from somewhere else. scientifically, there's no reason for them not to exist. but their existence or non-existence is totally irrelevant until we actually make contact. and since we're not counting them as gods, and if you believe that what i wrote above holds water, then there's no genetic reason for people to believe in them without proof. -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've read some articles lately that hint that humans have a genetic pre-disposition towards religions and beliefs in powers greater than what we can see. I believe it also leans towards a mixture of social conditioning, psychological rationalizing, and egotism as a result of what you spoke of when it comes to humans. Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. Jeremy Falcon
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Paul Watson wrote: genes which lean us towards believing that we are not alone? Do you feel alone, Paul?
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
Shog9 wrote: Do you feel alone, Paul? Not actually, not in any context really. Protons clump together as electrons zip around them. Elements gather into molecules. Molecules into cells. Cells cluster into bodies. My thoughts keep each other company. We post to the same Lounge. Our countries have each other. Continents socialise. Planets circle the same star. Solar systems gather in clusters. Galaxies swirl and merge together. One day other intelligent life will circle our planet and shake our hands/heads/ears/[insert relevant custom]. They are out there.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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I am just curious here so go sprinkle that holy water on your geraniums; Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? None can be currently proved. All three have thousands of years of stories, myths, legends and records. Yet somehow a God fearing Christian or eastward praying Muslim thinks aliens are a total crock, as fanciful as Santa Claus. Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me than the thought of other intelligent life eeking out and existance as we are somewhere in the universe. No super powers, no omniscience, no warp drive, they don't even have to have pointy ears. Just curious :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? Aliens are another form of life. We know and can prove conclusivily that life can and does exist and the only question is does it exist in another location. God cannot be proven to exist empirically nor can supernatural phenomena be proven empirically ( as a example that can be recreated or repeated consistantly ). Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher. Of course if your idea of God is based on the complete acceptance of the Bible or other such text alien life is completly out of the question as it would tend to lead to questions if the alien life form was not like ours and had no idea of our God. This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
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Paul Watson wrote: Terry Pratchette AFAIK, no ending 'e' Paul Watson wrote: Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself Watch out for vertigo...
S • H • O • G • N • I • N • E
I can't believe it... the way you look sometimes. And i don't want it... the things you're offering me.
Shog9 wrote: AFAIK, no ending 'e' Damnit I choose to believe in a reality where his surname ends with an e. You cannot deny me. :rolleyes: Shog9 wrote: Watch out for vertigo... Gee thanks, I feel so much better. ;P
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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I am just curious here so go sprinkle that holy water on your geraniums; Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? None can be currently proved. All three have thousands of years of stories, myths, legends and records. Yet somehow a God fearing Christian or eastward praying Muslim thinks aliens are a total crock, as fanciful as Santa Claus. Frankly the idea of an all powerful God is wilder to me than the thought of other intelligent life eeking out and existance as we are somewhere in the universe. No super powers, no omniscience, no warp drive, they don't even have to have pointy ears. Just curious :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
People don't go to war over whether Martians exist...
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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solon wrote: but there is the certainty that you will find the answer to the existence of god *Paul quickly starts believing in a God who does not reveal himself after death, just to piss solon off of course* ;) Good point though in terms of the common beliefs.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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brianwelsch wrote: suggests Gods exist based on human worship. Meaning the more people worship a God the stronger he becomes. Aaahh so that is where Terry Pratchette got his Small Gods idea from. Though I suddenly feel the need to elevate myself by reading AG rather than spouting on about a hilarious but less intelectual book. :-D brianwelsch wrote: It's as probable as anything to me. Like a flipping endless tree we think.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Paul Watson wrote: less intelectual book i wouldn't go that far. ;) Haven't read Pratchett, but my feeling is they are birds of a feather. One more fantastic the other more humourous. BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Chris Losinger wrote: i've read some articles lately that hint that humans have a genetic pre-disposition towards religions and beliefs in powers greater than what we can see. I believe it also leans towards a mixture of social conditioning, psychological rationalizing, and egotism as a result of what you spoke of when it comes to humans. Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Also, our genetic predisposition to think/act this way spans across many more planes than just our concept of religion. yeah, i agree. religion is probably just one result of the interaction of more basic traits which all of us share. but it's an interaction over which we don't have much control; nearly everyone has a religion of some kind. -c
Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler
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Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? Aliens are another form of life. We know and can prove conclusivily that life can and does exist and the only question is does it exist in another location. God cannot be proven to exist empirically nor can supernatural phenomena be proven empirically ( as a example that can be recreated or repeated consistantly ). Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher. Of course if your idea of God is based on the complete acceptance of the Bible or other such text alien life is completly out of the question as it would tend to lead to questions if the alien life form was not like ours and had no idea of our God. This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles
Richard Stringer wrote: Therefore for the one thing that the existance is known ( life ) as compared to the two that the existance cannot or has not been proven I suggest that the odds are greater and the level of acceptance is higher Well exactly. So why is a Christian in charge of the most powerful country on Earth, yet a man who claims aliens exist is derided for being a nut? Richard Stringer wrote: This may lead one to conclude that there cannot be any life elsewhere because it is not mentioned in the Bible or the Koran or whatever religious text you hold near and dear. I think their counter would be; God has a plan. The Bible does not exclude alien existance, it does not speak of it. God tells us what we need to know, and in his judgement we do not need to know about life forms elsewhere. Something like that. Most organised religions are very clever in being able to counter things like that with the simple "God has a plan" statement.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
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From the very beginning of the Bible, Man has occupied a central position. God created all the animals and then created mankind to rule over them. Religion revolves around the story of mankind and it's relationship to God. So, when we discovered that humans were surprisingly apelike, it was immediately rejected by believers (because we're not animals! we're above them, created separately by God). Humans share 98.7% of our base-pairs with the chimpanzee. But, scientific facts are not to be elevated over the special revelation of God, they argue. And, Christianity readily embraced the Aristolean idea of a geo-centric solar system. Again, because of the belief that mankind was center-stage in this large story about mankind and god. For a long time after the Copernicus model, some people were still proposing alternet theories about planetary motion which involved the earth in the center of the solar system, and the planets and sun revolving in strange eliptical orbits which just happened to follow the same paths as a solar-centric model. To propose the idea of aliens means that human civilization is again removed from central stage in this big story of God and Humankind. (It should be noted that some Christians have turned the possiblity of aliens around and said, "why should God limit his creativity to one planet?" Thus, changing the debate about aliens from "the centrality of mankind and the religious story" into "God is greater than we imagine". If aliens are found, there is little doubt that this shift in thinking about the subject will occur.) ( Of course, the reality of evolution, the solar-centric solar system, and the existence of aliens doesn't necessarily invalidate the reality of the religious story - but it's just a little too close for comfort for many people, so it creates resistence. ) [Edit] A second factor is probably the fact that the perception of an idea is influenced by our perception of the believers in that idea. There are quite a few people running around talking about meeting aliens which seem rather nutty (have you noticed that rather odd jumpsuit that the Raelian leader wears?). The result is that the idea of aliens doesn't get much respect because we judge ideas based on the perception of people who believe those ideas. Religion, on the other hand, is believed by lots of normal people, so it doesn't suffer from the same problem. You can point out specific cults and religious ideas, though, that do suffer from the strangeness of their followers. [\Edit] ---
Brit wrote: To propose the idea of aliens means that human civilization is again removed from central stage in this big story of God and Humankind. Yeah, and those delightful believers decided to throw Galileo in jail (although he ended up bound to his home) for that too. Brit wrote: For a long time after the Copernicus model, some people were still proposing alternet theories about planetary motion which involved the earth in the center of the solar system, and the planets and sun revolving in strange eliptical orbits which just happened to follow the same paths as a solar-centric model. Yeah, in short, it's called ego. That coincides with my other post, cool. :cool: Jeremy Falcon
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Shog9 wrote: Do you feel alone, Paul? Not actually, not in any context really. Protons clump together as electrons zip around them. Elements gather into molecules. Molecules into cells. Cells cluster into bodies. My thoughts keep each other company. We post to the same Lounge. Our countries have each other. Continents socialise. Planets circle the same star. Solar systems gather in clusters. Galaxies swirl and merge together. One day other intelligent life will circle our planet and shake our hands/heads/ears/[insert relevant custom]. They are out there.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson
Use Linux. You get far more friends that way.
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
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Paul Watson wrote: as fanciful as Santa Claus. That's it, Paul!! You talk about the unproven existance of God and aliens, but deny Santa's presence, and I've got to say something. :mad: I get presents each and every Christmas with the name Santa on at least one of them. That's all the proof I need. Although his penmanship is suspiciously like my mother's. :suss: :confused: Paul Watson wrote: Why is the idea of aliens or supernatural phenomenon any wilder than the idea of God? What if .. oh, nevermind.;P BW "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
5 :laugh: Elaine (highly amused fluffy tigress) [edit] Unless you were serious.... :~ [/edit] The tigress is here :-D
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People don't go to war over whether Martians exist...
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
Yet! ;P Jeremy Falcon
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Use Linux. You get far more friends that way.
"If you just say porn then you get all manner of chaff and low grade stuff."
- Paul Watson, Lounge 25 Mar 03
"But a fresh install - it's like having clean sheets"
- C. Maunder Lounge 3 Mar '03
Jonathan 'nonny' Newman Homepage [www.nonny.com] [^]
Jonny Newman wrote: Use Linux. You get far more friends that way. :rolleyes: Did someone stick a "I am lonely" notice on my back or something? I was saying how I am not lonely, nor is my defense trying to cover the very thing itself up (and neither is that!) Jeeeesh. Paul "Human Happy Pill" Watson. Shog said so. I don't need Linux or friends. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaMacbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Shog9: Paul "The human happy pill" Watson