Do you enjoy the work?
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I enjoy only one work in the past when I volunteer for MSF. I am not doctor but did other support work. I see lot of heartbreaking things what people do to others, but still I feel I am helping, but even in a small way. Now I am programmer and everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles. Every day I like work less and less. There is more things to do because the meaningless fixes they take time. Are lot of programmers behave like asshole, or only my company is different? I think I make the wrong choise. Do everyone have to work like this? Is big company better? Is it no difference the size but intelligent people treat others better?
You worked for MSF and that gave you a sense of purpose. Try to find a domain in programming that will give you a sense of purpose.
I'd rather be phishing!
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I enjoy only one work in the past when I volunteer for MSF. I am not doctor but did other support work. I see lot of heartbreaking things what people do to others, but still I feel I am helping, but even in a small way. Now I am programmer and everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles. Every day I like work less and less. There is more things to do because the meaningless fixes they take time. Are lot of programmers behave like asshole, or only my company is different? I think I make the wrong choise. Do everyone have to work like this? Is big company better? Is it no difference the size but intelligent people treat others better?
Member 12345678 wrote:
Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different? I think I make the wrong choise
Unless you're one of the people who participates in the arguments, then yeah, sounds like you made a wrong choice. As for company size, it makes no difference, its all about the team members and the manager. Big companies tend to be more formal about some of these things that cause arguments -- they tell you how they want it done -- which eliminates a lot of the arguing, but don't work there if you can't accept how they do things. Don't forget, the interview is also your opportunity to decide if you want to work with them :).
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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What I see is different Some professions have people with similar character like politicians are extrovert and programmers are introverts. Maybe not all but more are like that I think people in medical profession care more about other people Programmer care less it looks like that, but I don't know, I only see small number.
Member 12345678 wrote:
think people in medical profession care more about other people
I don't know about that. For the most part, they're making money off of other people's misfortunes. Don't judge the medical profession by those that go and give of themselves as volunteers. The majority will send you a bill because they held their hand to your forehead and told you to taken an aspirin. You're not face to face with them, but you will notice here on CP that introverts are not particularly common. With or without their gin.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Member 12345678 wrote:
Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different?
Do NOT ask me that question, lest you get a tirade. :sigh: But you did...
Member 12345678 wrote:
everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles.
Those are NOT the things that make other programmers (and I use that term so loosely it becomes devoid of meaning) look like imbeciles. You want to know what makes them look like imbeciles? 1. unrealistic, overly optimistic predictions of when work will be done, because they have NO EXPERIENCE in estimating tasks. 2. lack of planning, design, planning, architecture, planning, planning, planning. 3. constantly wanting to re-invent the wheel because they're too lazy / scared / dumb to learn what the senior developers have done 4. wanting to use the latest gizmo (language, open source, etc) with no consideration to maintainability, especially when they go away and the company is left hold a WTF is this shyte and who the heck has actual experience with it that we can hire and fix it??? 5. an absolute lack of understanding of the usefulness of unit tests, integration tests, logging, good architecture, mocking, etc. 6. an absolute lack of understanding of what tooling is necessary to support the customer, the tech support people, and the QA people. 7. no requirements documentation, just diving into coding with no consideration, thought, or exploration of the bigger picture. THOSE are the things that make other programmers look like imbeciles. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
I agree with your points, because I've seen them all happen. I'd just like to add an additional piece to restore some hope to anyone who might, after reading all of this, feel as though the development career landscape is nothing but a desolate wasteland: there are some good teams out there that don't have the issues you mentioned. In my experience, the good teams tend to be smaller ones with a decent amount of experience. That's not to say everyone is senior. A mix of senior and more junior developers can work well in the right environment. I think that strong technical leadership might be the most important part of a non-pathological dev team. It's important that leadership set expectations in terms of estimating, planning, testing, documentation, and finding the right balance between relying on proven technology and bringing in newer pieces when they are the right tool for the job. I worked at a company that had this at the start, and it was great. Over time, though, the insanity level increased in direct proportion to the MBA-types who joined the company and started making promises to customers and investors without checking to see if the promises were achievable within a reasonable time frame, or even checking to see if the promises would be achievable ever. So although all of your points are things that make programmers look bad, I believe that in many cases, petulant programmers are the proximate cause of the problem, but weak or non-existent technical leaders (or technical leaders that are undermined/handcuffed by non-technical leaders) are the ultimate cause.
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I enjoy only one work in the past when I volunteer for MSF. I am not doctor but did other support work. I see lot of heartbreaking things what people do to others, but still I feel I am helping, but even in a small way. Now I am programmer and everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles. Every day I like work less and less. There is more things to do because the meaningless fixes they take time. Are lot of programmers behave like asshole, or only my company is different? I think I make the wrong choise. Do everyone have to work like this? Is big company better? Is it no difference the size but intelligent people treat others better?
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Member 12345678 wrote:
Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different?
Do NOT ask me that question, lest you get a tirade. :sigh: But you did...
Member 12345678 wrote:
everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles.
Those are NOT the things that make other programmers (and I use that term so loosely it becomes devoid of meaning) look like imbeciles. You want to know what makes them look like imbeciles? 1. unrealistic, overly optimistic predictions of when work will be done, because they have NO EXPERIENCE in estimating tasks. 2. lack of planning, design, planning, architecture, planning, planning, planning. 3. constantly wanting to re-invent the wheel because they're too lazy / scared / dumb to learn what the senior developers have done 4. wanting to use the latest gizmo (language, open source, etc) with no consideration to maintainability, especially when they go away and the company is left hold a WTF is this shyte and who the heck has actual experience with it that we can hire and fix it??? 5. an absolute lack of understanding of the usefulness of unit tests, integration tests, logging, good architecture, mocking, etc. 6. an absolute lack of understanding of what tooling is necessary to support the customer, the tech support people, and the QA people. 7. no requirements documentation, just diving into coding with no consideration, thought, or exploration of the bigger picture. THOSE are the things that make other programmers look like imbeciles. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Hi Marc, I think this is a very valuable lesson for the OP ... and for others ... skill in recognizing shades and flavors, levels and strata, quantum states and spin, etc., of imbecility is a very important skill for any programmer. Without a working knowledge of the taxonomy of such impaired faculties, the programmer may be, indeed, challenged in choosing the appropriate disguise for their own inabilities and intellectual lacunae. It took me years to settle on "excess vocabulary" as a modus vivendi for passing myself off as the wretch you see now who dares to step into the photograph of his (far, far) betters. cheers, a wretch
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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Member 12345678 wrote:
think people in medical profession care more about other people
I don't know about that. For the most part, they're making money off of other people's misfortunes. Don't judge the medical profession by those that go and give of themselves as volunteers. The majority will send you a bill because they held their hand to your forehead and told you to taken an aspirin. You're not face to face with them, but you will notice here on CP that introverts are not particularly common. With or without their gin.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
you will notice here on CP that introverts are not particularly common
Yes, Neddie. We only accept introverts with a good pedigree.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Basically you are asking the wrong question and you know that. Whether or not other people enjoy the work makes no difference. What matters is how you feel about it. Put the issues with your current coworkers aside and ask yourself if you like programming on a basic level. If yes, you can find a way to make it meaningful. If not, you need to get out.
Yes you are right but enjoying the programming is not enough if other coworkers are difficult people I only ask how it is like in other places because then maybe I can change the company But if this work attract more people unpleasant it makes no difference, because everywhere is same problem
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Member 12345678 wrote:
Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different?
Do NOT ask me that question, lest you get a tirade. :sigh: But you did...
Member 12345678 wrote:
everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles.
Those are NOT the things that make other programmers (and I use that term so loosely it becomes devoid of meaning) look like imbeciles. You want to know what makes them look like imbeciles? 1. unrealistic, overly optimistic predictions of when work will be done, because they have NO EXPERIENCE in estimating tasks. 2. lack of planning, design, planning, architecture, planning, planning, planning. 3. constantly wanting to re-invent the wheel because they're too lazy / scared / dumb to learn what the senior developers have done 4. wanting to use the latest gizmo (language, open source, etc) with no consideration to maintainability, especially when they go away and the company is left hold a WTF is this shyte and who the heck has actual experience with it that we can hire and fix it??? 5. an absolute lack of understanding of the usefulness of unit tests, integration tests, logging, good architecture, mocking, etc. 6. an absolute lack of understanding of what tooling is necessary to support the customer, the tech support people, and the QA people. 7. no requirements documentation, just diving into coding with no consideration, thought, or exploration of the bigger picture. THOSE are the things that make other programmers look like imbeciles. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
I beg pardon if my question annoy you, but you miss point. I say this as the example only, I am not expert in everything and not good explaining. Some of these things I also do myself when inexperienced. Maybe I am imbecile too but this industry expects of us so much knowledge in different things in very whort time. It is like asking the surgeon who is expert in brain to operate on heart and the next day do kidney transplant and treat psychological patient that same night, and also write document for nurse to do same things after reading it.
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Member 12345678 wrote:
Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different?
Do NOT ask me that question, lest you get a tirade. :sigh: But you did...
Member 12345678 wrote:
everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles.
Those are NOT the things that make other programmers (and I use that term so loosely it becomes devoid of meaning) look like imbeciles. You want to know what makes them look like imbeciles? 1. unrealistic, overly optimistic predictions of when work will be done, because they have NO EXPERIENCE in estimating tasks. 2. lack of planning, design, planning, architecture, planning, planning, planning. 3. constantly wanting to re-invent the wheel because they're too lazy / scared / dumb to learn what the senior developers have done 4. wanting to use the latest gizmo (language, open source, etc) with no consideration to maintainability, especially when they go away and the company is left hold a WTF is this shyte and who the heck has actual experience with it that we can hire and fix it??? 5. an absolute lack of understanding of the usefulness of unit tests, integration tests, logging, good architecture, mocking, etc. 6. an absolute lack of understanding of what tooling is necessary to support the customer, the tech support people, and the QA people. 7. no requirements documentation, just diving into coding with no consideration, thought, or exploration of the bigger picture. THOSE are the things that make other programmers look like imbeciles. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
You missed my favorite: demanding you do something a certain way and then freaking out when you do.
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I agree with your points, because I've seen them all happen. I'd just like to add an additional piece to restore some hope to anyone who might, after reading all of this, feel as though the development career landscape is nothing but a desolate wasteland: there are some good teams out there that don't have the issues you mentioned. In my experience, the good teams tend to be smaller ones with a decent amount of experience. That's not to say everyone is senior. A mix of senior and more junior developers can work well in the right environment. I think that strong technical leadership might be the most important part of a non-pathological dev team. It's important that leadership set expectations in terms of estimating, planning, testing, documentation, and finding the right balance between relying on proven technology and bringing in newer pieces when they are the right tool for the job. I worked at a company that had this at the start, and it was great. Over time, though, the insanity level increased in direct proportion to the MBA-types who joined the company and started making promises to customers and investors without checking to see if the promises were achievable within a reasonable time frame, or even checking to see if the promises would be achievable ever. So although all of your points are things that make programmers look bad, I believe that in many cases, petulant programmers are the proximate cause of the problem, but weak or non-existent technical leaders (or technical leaders that are undermined/handcuffed by non-technical leaders) are the ultimate cause.
Ryan Peden wrote:
I think that strong technical leadership might be the most important part of a non-pathological dev team.
Quite so, and this seems to be most lacking in my current experience.
Ryan Peden wrote:
but weak or non-existent technical leaders (or technical leaders that are undermined/handcuffed by non-technical leaders) are the ultimate cause.
Absolutely. That is exactly the problem I'm dealing with. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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Hi Marc, I think this is a very valuable lesson for the OP ... and for others ... skill in recognizing shades and flavors, levels and strata, quantum states and spin, etc., of imbecility is a very important skill for any programmer. Without a working knowledge of the taxonomy of such impaired faculties, the programmer may be, indeed, challenged in choosing the appropriate disguise for their own inabilities and intellectual lacunae. It took me years to settle on "excess vocabulary" as a modus vivendi for passing myself off as the wretch you see now who dares to step into the photograph of his (far, far) betters. cheers, a wretch
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
BillWoodruff wrote:
n choosing the appropriate disguise for their own inabilities and intellectual lacunae.
Like "I know Haskell, so I'm going to do stuff in F#." ;) Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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I beg pardon if my question annoy you, but you miss point. I say this as the example only, I am not expert in everything and not good explaining. Some of these things I also do myself when inexperienced. Maybe I am imbecile too but this industry expects of us so much knowledge in different things in very whort time. It is like asking the surgeon who is expert in brain to operate on heart and the next day do kidney transplant and treat psychological patient that same night, and also write document for nurse to do same things after reading it.
Member 12345678 wrote:
but this industry expects of us so much knowledge in different things in very whort time.
It's not the industry, it's incompetent CTO's that expect 1) people to come up to speed quickly on complicated technology and 2) everything to written simple enough for a beginner to be able to understand immediately. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
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You missed my favorite: demanding you do something a certain way and then freaking out when you do.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
demanding you do something a certain way and then freaking out when you do.
Or the other side of the coin - giving you cart blanche to implement a solid architecture, then freaking out that it's too complicated for the beginners. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project! Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny