Apple/Ireland update: make that $14.5 billion worth of $henanigans
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I wouldn't claim apple to be blameless for anything - except, in this case, they were making a business deal with a sovereign nation and if this violates the rules to which that nation agreed to then they're the ones who committed the violation - perhaps the whole island should be walled up and put in prison for fraud? No one twisted anyone's arm to offer a the deal in violation of any law. They could have remained on the up-and-up easily enough. They were greedy and wanted the deal - well now it's time to pay back some of the money they made from having the company there. That's worth repeating: well now it's time to pay back some of the money they made from having the company there. because they didn't do it out of charity - they thought to make so money on this. It's just typical EU budget balancing at the expense of US corporations.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors.... Europe is paying for years for the infrastructure of the country while they could have paid that themselves by asking proper taxes. Apple paid 0.005% taxrate. No consumer could get that.
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It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors.... Europe is paying for years for the infrastructure of the country while they could have paid that themselves by asking proper taxes. Apple paid 0.005% taxrate. No consumer could get that.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
Nothing about what apple did or didn't pay is relevant: they had a contract with a sovereign nation and that nation should be held to honor it. As for EU infrastructure? Proper taxes? Not even the least bit relevant. At least not until they give Apple and Microsoft seats in the Brussels gathering of idiots. This comes down to a very simple and basic concept: do you trust in a legal agreement signed in the EU or not. Apparently, and repeatedly, we know the answer is "NOT".
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Nothing about what apple did or didn't pay is relevant: they had a contract with a sovereign nation and that nation should be held to honor it. As for EU infrastructure? Proper taxes? Not even the least bit relevant. At least not until they give Apple and Microsoft seats in the Brussels gathering of idiots. This comes down to a very simple and basic concept: do you trust in a legal agreement signed in the EU or not. Apparently, and repeatedly, we know the answer is "NOT".
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
And the EU should trust TTIP?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors.... Europe is paying for years for the infrastructure of the country while they could have paid that themselves by asking proper taxes. Apple paid 0.005% taxrate. No consumer could get that.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
digimanus wrote:
It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors....
and, of course EU corporations would never think of trying to beat their competitors.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem.
As I understand it, it's not just fines but also back taxes. Assuming you're USian, if your company screws up your W-2, it's not the company on the hook for back taxes and penalties to the IRS, it's you. Figure it's pretty much the same case here, just a bit bigger than what you or I would owe Uncle Sam.
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And the EU should trust TTIP?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
I wouldn't - I find that any trade agreement the US makes with Europe or Asia is a disaster for the US. Just trade - or make trade war if that's the cover you wish to use to hide a failing culture - but I'm really disgusted with rEUgulations.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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digimanus wrote:
It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors....
and, of course EU corporations would never think of trying to beat their competitors.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
CAn EU Companies get 0.005 Tax rate in US?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem.
As I understand it, it's not just fines but also back taxes. Assuming you're USian, if your company screws up your W-2, it's not the company on the hook for back taxes and penalties to the IRS, it's you. Figure it's pretty much the same case here, just a bit bigger than what you or I would owe Uncle Sam.
It's exactly the point: Back Taxes - when the agreement they made with the host country was for taxes at a given rate. As for the W2 error analogy - not correct. The error was in the calculation on an agreement (if you wish to call it that) between the worker and the government in how much tax they are to pay. If the company, acting as their agent, miscalculates it, it doesn't change the agreement between the taxpayer and the government: the rate is still the same. If, however, the government offered you a tax break for opening up a business in a specific location (and may states do this) - that's there business. The federal government does so, as well. Once the deal's made, if the recipient lives up to their part of the contract then the government cannot simply change the rules - not without compensation. So - if the taxes were underpaid because Ireland (and others) made deal, it's up to them to uphold the agreement. They made the deal for their own benefit (don't blame everything on Apple) and so they must uphold the deal. Or, were the Brits more correct than ever in Brexit, lest the EU overrun their country as if it were the EU's own.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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CAn EU Companies get 0.005 Tax rate in US?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either). By now, you really get the point: A contract made by an entity legally entitled to make its own decisions (like a sovereign nation) is responsible to uphold the contract. If they're not so obligated then there's no way for anyone to do any business, certainly not internationally, as there would be absolutely no trust.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either). By now, you really get the point: A contract made by an entity legally entitled to make its own decisions (like a sovereign nation) is responsible to uphold the contract. If they're not so obligated then there's no way for anyone to do any business, certainly not internationally, as there would be absolutely no trust.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
Apple has it in Ireland
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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It's exactly the point: Back Taxes - when the agreement they made with the host country was for taxes at a given rate. As for the W2 error analogy - not correct. The error was in the calculation on an agreement (if you wish to call it that) between the worker and the government in how much tax they are to pay. If the company, acting as their agent, miscalculates it, it doesn't change the agreement between the taxpayer and the government: the rate is still the same. If, however, the government offered you a tax break for opening up a business in a specific location (and may states do this) - that's there business. The federal government does so, as well. Once the deal's made, if the recipient lives up to their part of the contract then the government cannot simply change the rules - not without compensation. So - if the taxes were underpaid because Ireland (and others) made deal, it's up to them to uphold the agreement. They made the deal for their own benefit (don't blame everything on Apple) and so they must uphold the deal. Or, were the Brits more correct than ever in Brexit, lest the EU overrun their country as if it were the EU's own.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
Apple has it in Ireland
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
digimanus wrote:
Apple has it in Ireland
Yeah - I saw the article - and who gave them that rate. It wasn't the US Government. It was the Irish government. Do they run their own country or not? Can they make legal decision about how their nations is to be run . . . or not. If not, then stop calling the EU members separate countries. They're states or provinces of the EU and they should all drop their individual UN memberships (for example) as, like US states, they're not sovereign entities.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes - they don't have that authority. We may set up a contract like that, though (If I'm uneducated in how the tax system in the US works), but it's entirely unenforceable.
Vark111 wrote:
But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes
So - who does apple pay taxes to? Ireland, right. What they need to do with their taxes (viz-a-viz, the EU) is their business. If they wish to subsidize the rate to get the employment - is it not their right as the owners of the country? Ireland didn't negotiate down the tax rate of a company setting up in Spain. That's Spain's right (or should be).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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digimanus wrote:
Apple has it in Ireland
Yeah - I saw the article - and who gave them that rate. It wasn't the US Government. It was the Irish government. Do they run their own country or not? Can they make legal decision about how their nations is to be run . . . or not. If not, then stop calling the EU members separate countries. They're states or provinces of the EU and they should all drop their individual UN memberships (for example) as, like US states, they're not sovereign entities.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
In the end it is unfair to other US Companies that do not even get close to that %
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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In the end it is unfair to other US Companies that do not even get close to that %
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
Well - yes - in a way you're right. It's not fairness to US companies that the EU is concerned with. It's punishing the success of US companies that are foolish enough to do business in the EU. Also, grabbing $14 Billion will go a long way towards paying for the refugee crisis whilst they try to find an excuse to fine another US company.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Well - yes - in a way you're right. It's not fairness to US companies that the EU is concerned with. It's punishing the success of US companies that are foolish enough to do business in the EU. Also, grabbing $14 Billion will go a long way towards paying for the refugee crisis whilst they try to find an excuse to fine another US company.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Apple made over $250 Billion dollars profit in the EU. And all the Irish employees of Apple is not even 20% of all european Apple workers. Apple Benefits with over $2.5M per Irish Employee with barely paying taxes. Furthermore Apple collects all there EU sells in Ireland and their they pay taxes not in other EU countries. So the deal with Ireland has effect on the total EU. That is why the announcement was made today. If there is ever gonna be a payment depends on the future. Not only Apple but also Ireland is appealing.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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Apple made over $250 Billion dollars profit in the EU. And all the Irish employees of Apple is not even 20% of all european Apple workers. Apple Benefits with over $2.5M per Irish Employee with barely paying taxes. Furthermore Apple collects all there EU sells in Ireland and their they pay taxes not in other EU countries. So the deal with Ireland has effect on the total EU. That is why the announcement was made today. If there is ever gonna be a payment depends on the future. Not only Apple but also Ireland is appealing.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
So - who's idea in the Irish Government was it to make this deal? Why did they make it? Ireland clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the EU so I'd suspect there was something in it for them. Perhaps, instead of adding up how much various places didn't get - add up how much they did get. Perhaps the answer lies there. Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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So - who's idea in the Irish Government was it to make this deal? Why did they make it? Ireland clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the EU so I'd suspect there was something in it for them. Perhaps, instead of adding up how much various places didn't get - add up how much they did get. Perhaps the answer lies there. Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Quote:
Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
' That is why I state about the appeals
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Strongly disagree there. Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money doesn't mean that Apple should be getting away with that. The EU is right in drawing the line. Sure nations should be competing with tax rates if they are rooted in efficiency, but this was a bullshit deal.
Wout