Apple/Ireland update: make that $14.5 billion worth of $henanigans
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either). By now, you really get the point: A contract made by an entity legally entitled to make its own decisions (like a sovereign nation) is responsible to uphold the contract. If they're not so obligated then there's no way for anyone to do any business, certainly not internationally, as there would be absolutely no trust.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
Apple has it in Ireland
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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It's exactly the point: Back Taxes - when the agreement they made with the host country was for taxes at a given rate. As for the W2 error analogy - not correct. The error was in the calculation on an agreement (if you wish to call it that) between the worker and the government in how much tax they are to pay. If the company, acting as their agent, miscalculates it, it doesn't change the agreement between the taxpayer and the government: the rate is still the same. If, however, the government offered you a tax break for opening up a business in a specific location (and may states do this) - that's there business. The federal government does so, as well. Once the deal's made, if the recipient lives up to their part of the contract then the government cannot simply change the rules - not without compensation. So - if the taxes were underpaid because Ireland (and others) made deal, it's up to them to uphold the agreement. They made the deal for their own benefit (don't blame everything on Apple) and so they must uphold the deal. Or, were the Brits more correct than ever in Brexit, lest the EU overrun their country as if it were the EU's own.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
Apple has it in Ireland
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
digimanus wrote:
Apple has it in Ireland
Yeah - I saw the article - and who gave them that rate. It wasn't the US Government. It was the Irish government. Do they run their own country or not? Can they make legal decision about how their nations is to be run . . . or not. If not, then stop calling the EU members separate countries. They're states or provinces of the EU and they should all drop their individual UN memberships (for example) as, like US states, they're not sovereign entities.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes - they don't have that authority. We may set up a contract like that, though (If I'm uneducated in how the tax system in the US works), but it's entirely unenforceable.
Vark111 wrote:
But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes
So - who does apple pay taxes to? Ireland, right. What they need to do with their taxes (viz-a-viz, the EU) is their business. If they wish to subsidize the rate to get the employment - is it not their right as the owners of the country? Ireland didn't negotiate down the tax rate of a company setting up in Spain. That's Spain's right (or should be).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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digimanus wrote:
Apple has it in Ireland
Yeah - I saw the article - and who gave them that rate. It wasn't the US Government. It was the Irish government. Do they run their own country or not? Can they make legal decision about how their nations is to be run . . . or not. If not, then stop calling the EU members separate countries. They're states or provinces of the EU and they should all drop their individual UN memberships (for example) as, like US states, they're not sovereign entities.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
In the end it is unfair to other US Companies that do not even get close to that %
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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In the end it is unfair to other US Companies that do not even get close to that %
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
Well - yes - in a way you're right. It's not fairness to US companies that the EU is concerned with. It's punishing the success of US companies that are foolish enough to do business in the EU. Also, grabbing $14 Billion will go a long way towards paying for the refugee crisis whilst they try to find an excuse to fine another US company.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Well - yes - in a way you're right. It's not fairness to US companies that the EU is concerned with. It's punishing the success of US companies that are foolish enough to do business in the EU. Also, grabbing $14 Billion will go a long way towards paying for the refugee crisis whilst they try to find an excuse to fine another US company.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Apple made over $250 Billion dollars profit in the EU. And all the Irish employees of Apple is not even 20% of all european Apple workers. Apple Benefits with over $2.5M per Irish Employee with barely paying taxes. Furthermore Apple collects all there EU sells in Ireland and their they pay taxes not in other EU countries. So the deal with Ireland has effect on the total EU. That is why the announcement was made today. If there is ever gonna be a payment depends on the future. Not only Apple but also Ireland is appealing.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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Apple made over $250 Billion dollars profit in the EU. And all the Irish employees of Apple is not even 20% of all european Apple workers. Apple Benefits with over $2.5M per Irish Employee with barely paying taxes. Furthermore Apple collects all there EU sells in Ireland and their they pay taxes not in other EU countries. So the deal with Ireland has effect on the total EU. That is why the announcement was made today. If there is ever gonna be a payment depends on the future. Not only Apple but also Ireland is appealing.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
So - who's idea in the Irish Government was it to make this deal? Why did they make it? Ireland clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the EU so I'd suspect there was something in it for them. Perhaps, instead of adding up how much various places didn't get - add up how much they did get. Perhaps the answer lies there. Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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So - who's idea in the Irish Government was it to make this deal? Why did they make it? Ireland clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the EU so I'd suspect there was something in it for them. Perhaps, instead of adding up how much various places didn't get - add up how much they did get. Perhaps the answer lies there. Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Quote:
Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
' That is why I state about the appeals
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Strongly disagree there. Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money doesn't mean that Apple should be getting away with that. The EU is right in drawing the line. Sure nations should be competing with tax rates if they are rooted in efficiency, but this was a bullshit deal.
Wout
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Strongly disagree there. Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money doesn't mean that Apple should be getting away with that. The EU is right in drawing the line. Sure nations should be competing with tax rates if they are rooted in efficiency, but this was a bullshit deal.
Wout
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there. Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The EU is right in drawing the line.
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term. There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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CAn EU Companies get 0.005 Tax rate in US?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
No, they will get a 0% tax rate.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I wouldn't - I find that any trade agreement the US makes with Europe or Asia is a disaster for the US. Just trade - or make trade war if that's the cover you wish to use to hide a failing culture - but I'm really disgusted with rEUgulations.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Quote:
... I find that any trade agreement the US makes with Europe or Asia is a disaster for the US...
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
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Bloomberg: Updated August 30, 2016 10:48 AM GMT: [^]
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
Surely it's a simple as [of course it never is] Ireland has a Corporation tax rate and it should be the same for every company operating out of there. Ireland can [and do] set their own corporation tax rates. The EU are there to enforce it, both because they want to ensure competition is fairer between EU states, and also because as a whole they have a lot more power than maybe Ireland does on it's own. Even if Apple paid the going rate in Ireland, it would still be lower than most of the EU, which is why they based themselves there in the first place.
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wout de zeeuw wrote:
Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there. Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The EU is right in drawing the line.
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term. There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there.
Except that people didn't vote for this. This kind of bullshit deals is done in back rooms by individuals whilst having some champagne, and people only find out about these deals years later.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay. And this is the problem. These mobster companies are hawking for countries that are desperate for jobs, and that are willing to sign away their lives for it. The EU is doing the right thing in stopping these maffia companies from exploiting the weak point in its armor.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want, you can't give one company a big advantage compared to another company. It's not arbitrary, Apple should pay taxes that is in line that what other companies are paying.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
Not worried about that. Surely the world needs investment, and paying taxes is part of that. Apple makes great products (but not indispensible). It does not, and should not need unfair advantages to be able to compete. If they need money laundering deals with fantasy constructs like non-existing head quarters[^], let them exploit some other little country. If companies will leave Ireland, that might give some short term transitional issues, but the EU will help them out with this.
Wout
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wout de zeeuw wrote:
Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there. Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The EU is right in drawing the line.
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term. There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in XXXX and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in XXXX and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
That's so generic a pronouncement it actually passes no information. "Could Be Applied" - anything "could be applied" "Many" is an arbitrary amount "Many fields of life and business" - to make sure there's something somewhere it applies to. I'm not saying you're wrong - your statement is so written as to be impossible to be wrong.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Quote:
... I find that any trade agreement the US makes with Europe or Asia is a disaster for the US...
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
Mario Vernari wrote:
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
Here's the FIFY: Also said as: - since the US product is so good the EU cannot compete so they fine and take some of the profits anyway* * For example, fining Google because (1) they put paid advertisers ahead of others in the search - even though that has always been their business model and never a secret, and (2) Google has over 90% of the EU search traffic so they're a monopoly. Who's fault is (2)? It's substantially lower in the US (we use Yahoo, Bing, etc.) and the fact that no EU web-search product is worth the time to type in the address-bar is another problem the thieves in Brussels cannot stand for. The EU is taking a cue from an old USA proverb "The power to tax is the power to destroy". In our case, it's a seperation-of-church-and-state thing, but in your case, it's a clue on how to compete in business when you're not good enough to compete.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there.
Except that people didn't vote for this. This kind of bullshit deals is done in back rooms by individuals whilst having some champagne, and people only find out about these deals years later.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay. And this is the problem. These mobster companies are hawking for countries that are desperate for jobs, and that are willing to sign away their lives for it. The EU is doing the right thing in stopping these maffia companies from exploiting the weak point in its armor.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want, you can't give one company a big advantage compared to another company. It's not arbitrary, Apple should pay taxes that is in line that what other companies are paying.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
Not worried about that. Surely the world needs investment, and paying taxes is part of that. Apple makes great products (but not indispensible). It does not, and should not need unfair advantages to be able to compete. If they need money laundering deals with fantasy constructs like non-existing head quarters[^], let them exploit some other little country. If companies will leave Ireland, that might give some short term transitional issues, but the EU will help them out with this.
Wout
At this point your flailing for ways to excuse the inexcusable and ignoring the reality:
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Except that people didn't vote for this.
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want,
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business. I can hear it all now blaring from the TV on "France 24": How dare you conduct such business in the EU. That will be against the law! You will be prosecuted and punished! for violating EU rules we will write especially for you. Also, we have decided that the new national language of Ireland will henceforth be Esperanto. Now, get us some more wine. The meeting isn't over.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010