What is the position of the presidential candidates on H-1B visas ?
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It's been a good civil discussion so far though. Once in a while, it's nice to discuss these topics here, specially since they do affect the technology industry.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Nish Nishant wrote:
It's been a good civil discussion so far though.
So far. I doubt that will last. :rolleyes:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Nish Nishant wrote:
It's been a good civil discussion so far though.
So far. I doubt that will last. :rolleyes:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Looks like Sean or Chris or someone in Toronto moved this to the Soapbox. Now I guess it may not keep its civil tone, in which case, I'll stop participating in the thread :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Companies like Microsoft and Google actually use this Visa in the spirit of the law. Example, Microsoft filed for 4575 H-1B Visas in 2016 at an average salary of $122,641 (not including bonuses / perks). Google filed 4048 at $127,898. Apple had 1514 applications averaging a salary of $136,876. Facebook's average salary was $140,578. These are very good salaries, specially when you consider that most of these workers are in their mid-20s and so starting at an intermediate role. The Indian outsourcing companies pay way lower wages though. Infosys filed for 33,289 Visas at an average pay of $79,201. Tata had 16,553 apps at $69,648. IBM filed 13,600 at $83,248. Obviously those salaries still look good on paper, and are way above average wages for the typical American, just below-par for IT workers. Typically, most H-1B workers have spouses who are also technology graduates, so most of them get their own H-1bs that same year or the following year. Even at a relatively poor salary of 70K an year, that's still a household income of $140K which puts them in a very top bracket (in the country). Also consider that a vast majority file for permanent residency and eventually naturalize and become Americans (process can take 10-12 years though). Source : Top 100 H1B Visa Sponsors -2016 H1B Visa Report | MyVisaJobs.com[^]
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
I personally know some H1Bers at Google and Facebook that are titled and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law. :edit: Actually, I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quota. :edit:
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I remember that too. I was a chemist in the 80's. Just starting out in NJ. This guy who had actually immigrated from Egypt, used to complain about Indians coming in and keeping wages so low. I did not understand then - I was young and stupid. Later in as an IT worker, I met an H-1B who was making one-half the prevailing wage as an Oracle DBA. I asked why he worked so cheap. He explained, he could not look for a new job because the company held his visa. If he left the company, he had to leave the country. H-1B is another name for indentured-servitude.
jlongo wrote:
H-1B is another name for indentured-servitude.
I knew that part, too, but wanted to keep it low key in the Lounge (for a change). There's also the part, at least way-back-then, where they didn't have to pay any taxes on what they got. Systemically, it's like a country taking cyanide pills. 1 -The H-1b group discourages students from going into tech fields where there job prospects are poor due to the H-1b; 2 - which causes a shortage of US citizens in the field 3 - which results in more H-1b employment. go to 1
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I personally know some H1Bers at Google and Facebook that are titled and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law. :edit: Actually, I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quota. :edit:
That'd be a legal gray area. You'd have to say it's their fault - why even do that? If they are smart enough to be at Google, surely they should just get a better position or change employers. Transferring an H-1B is a simple 2 week process.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Posting rules for The Lounge[^]
4. No politics (including enviro-politics[^]), no sex, no religion.
As JSOP said, posts like this belong in the Soapbox. EDIT: And as if by magic, the thread is now in the Soapbox. :)
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
TI disagree. This is not a political advocacy conversation for either party. This is not about gun control, or who got a prison sentence, or BLM o WLM, or anything else on CNN. "For lazing about and discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions." This is a topic that directly affects IT workers -- including you. Please put this back in the lounge where IT workers will see it and we can educate ourselves. I still have no idea which candidate will shut down H-1B's --- if any of them will. And if none of them will, IT still workers need to be educated so they raise bloody hell to close this scam down.
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That'd be a legal gray area. You'd have to say it's their fault - why even do that? If they are smart enough to be at Google, surely they should just get a better position or change employers. Transferring an H-1B is a simple 2 week process.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
Then maybe you can educate them. They would need to find another sponsor that is willing to pay and take the transfer which is not quite as easy as it sounds. It is indentured servitude and needs to be eliminated entirely. Either you are allowed to work, live, and move freely here in the US or you are not. No grey area, no limits. I have known and worked with (and hired and fired) too many H1Bers and know that the law is abused 100% of the time.
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Then maybe you can educate them. They would need to find another sponsor that is willing to pay and take the transfer which is not quite as easy as it sounds. It is indentured servitude and needs to be eliminated entirely. Either you are allowed to work, live, and move freely here in the US or you are not. No grey area, no limits. I have known and worked with (and hired and fired) too many H1Bers and know that the law is abused 100% of the time.
Opening up the Visa would possibly help with that sort of thing. It would then allow the Visa holder to change jobs as he/she pleases.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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TI disagree. This is not a political advocacy conversation for either party. This is not about gun control, or who got a prison sentence, or BLM o WLM, or anything else on CNN. "For lazing about and discussing anything in a software developer's life that takes your fancy except programming questions." This is a topic that directly affects IT workers -- including you. Please put this back in the lounge where IT workers will see it and we can educate ourselves. I still have no idea which candidate will shut down H-1B's --- if any of them will. And if none of them will, IT still workers need to be educated so they raise bloody hell to close this scam down.
So you're asking for opinions on which US Presidential candidate will do X, and you think that's NOT a political discussion? :doh:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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Opening up the Visa would possibly help with that sort of thing. It would then allow the Visa holder to change jobs as he/she pleases.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
That would help, but eliminating the program would be better. The problem is the corruption and abuse of this (like every other gov't program). There probably are certain jobs that can only be performed by a handful of people in the world -- rocket motor designer, CPU chip designer, girl from Norway to work in Norway Land at Epcot, etc. So we create a program like H-1B -- so they can come in. Then the corporations figure out they can game the system, but the caps are too low. So they bribe -- er, lobby -- to get the caps raised. Eventually, we globalized wages in one of the best paying fields there is. I was making a lot of money and could change jobs easily. Now I am making 1/2 the money and my last job took 3 months to land.
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So you're asking for opinions on which US Presidential candidate will do X, and you think that's NOT a political discussion? :doh:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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jlongo wrote:
H-1B is another name for indentured-servitude.
I knew that part, too, but wanted to keep it low key in the Lounge (for a change). There's also the part, at least way-back-then, where they didn't have to pay any taxes on what they got. Systemically, it's like a country taking cyanide pills. 1 -The H-1b group discourages students from going into tech fields where there job prospects are poor due to the H-1b; 2 - which causes a shortage of US citizens in the field 3 - which results in more H-1b employment. go to 1
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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If those large outsourcing companies were prevented from importing 1000s of lower cost workers, that would certainly increase wage levels. That said, I don't think it's a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Visa should continue to exist, so we can bring a specific candidate into the country if we really need to hire him or her. Perhaps set max limits per company (proportionate to their size), set minimum salary levels, do more through documentation checks, etc.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
That would help, but eliminating the program would be better. The problem is the corruption and abuse of this (like every other gov't program). There probably are certain jobs that can only be performed by a handful of people in the world -- rocket motor designer, CPU chip designer, girl from Norway to work in Norway Land at Epcot, etc. So we create a program like H-1B -- so they can come in. Then the corporations figure out they can game the system, but the caps are too low. So they bribe -- er, lobby -- to get the caps raised. Eventually, we globalized wages in one of the best paying fields there is. I was making a lot of money and could change jobs easily. Now I am making 1/2 the money and my last job took 3 months to land.
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In 2014, the U.S. approved more than 370,000 H-1B applications. The flood of cheap foreign workers is killing compensation for software developers. In the DC region, I am seeing rates from the early 90's. In the 90's, rates were easily $40-80/hr. I think it is worse in the Seattle area. If we have a tech worker shortage, why are we at $40-80/hr 25 years later ? I want to know which candidate will shut this down ?
...thanks primarily to the ability to pay their imported workers on H-1B visas between 30 percent and 50 percent less than the prevailing American wage rate for that job.
...it's no surprise to discover that politics and business are familiar bedfellows, ...the list of the top 10 companies who apply for H-1B visas. In 2014, while six were Indian ... the rest were all American. Deloitte, IBM, Accenture, and Microsoft made up the remainder of the top 10, while Ernst & Young and Google sneaked into 11th and 12th places
Southern California Edison IT workers 'beyond furious' over H-1B replacements Pink Slips at Disney. But First, Training Foreign Replacements ... For you South Park fans: "They took our jobs! They took der jerbs!! Durka durr!!"
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes form bad judgment.
jlongo wrote:
The flood of cheap foreign workers is killing compensation for software developers
I don't see that as the cause at all. US gov stats give at least 7 million Computer jobs. And that is jobs, not demand. May 2015 National Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates[^]
jlongo wrote:
In 2014, the U.S. approved more than 370,000 H-1B applications.
I rather doubt that number. But in 2015, obviously more current, there was only 85,000 High-skilled visa applications hit record high - Apr. 13, 2015[^]
jlongo wrote:
In the 90's, rates were easily $40-80/hr
Huh? Maybe we are talking about something different. $40 and hour would be an extremely low contract rate where I am. Far as I can recall contract rates were probably always above 60 and went above 80.
jlongo wrote:
why are we at $40-80/hr 25 years later
Overall employment compensation, not just tech, have not gone up significantly for 20 years. The why and causes of that cannot be categorized to any simple reason. U.S. Income Through the Years[^]
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I think you are falling into a logic trap. H-1Bs make labor cheap. Therefore, prevailing wages are cheap. But you are paying prevailing wages, so H-1B does not depress wages. How come so many smart people do not understand basic economics ? If you limit the availability of a commodity, it becomes more expensive. Consider, if H1-B's did not exist, the US would have less tech workers(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions). For a company to hire an IT worker, they would have to pay more. That makes the prevailing wage higher. You are still paying the prevailing wage, but American IT workers are making more money.
jlongo wrote:
(I have no idea the real number, but my guess is in the millions).
At 100,000 per year with a 5 term (normal) that is only 1 million. There are many assumptions there however starting with the primary one that all of them stay.
jlongo wrote:
but American IT workers are making more money.
H1B visa holders can apply for citizenship. Once they become a citizen they are an "American IT worker".
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I personally know some H1Bers at Google and Facebook that are titled and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law. :edit: Actually, I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quota. :edit:
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
and paid as mid-levels that are doing the work of Senior and even Principle level developers. So yeah, they are abusing the law.
So every other company you have worked for of know of there is nobody doing work at a higher level than their position dictates?
NotYourAverageGuy wrote:
I just remembered I also know a hiring manager at one of the mentioned companies that has an 'unofficial' H1B quot
And is it possible that that was for other reasons? Perhaps, just a possibility, due to diversity concerns?
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No matter the outcome, I don't really see this as a big deal for software developers. Software (especially that distributed on the internet) crosses boundaries pretty freely. There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US. It's not like a sandwich shop where the product needs to be made where it is consumed.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
H.Brydon wrote:
There is not a lot of difference between software written in the US and sold in the US versus software written in India and sold in the US.
That however is conceptual but not realistic. The fact that conceptually a programmer in India versus one in the US could do the same thing ignores completely the logistics of actually delivering a product out the door to someone that will pay for it. There are a large number of process steps in that which can and do make a difference.
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He worked there dude.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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It depends on how companies manage the outsourcing. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. have offices in India, Europe, Canada, etc. With constant communication, and with people from here actually going to those outsourced countries to meet the team face to face, that can help a lot.
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com
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Nish Nishant wrote:
It depends on how companies manage the outsourcing
Naturally. Many companies fail. And of those that succeed it requires a substantial cost which many companies don't realize.
Yeah, I agree - it's not a magical fix-all-problems Visa, that's for sure :-)
Regards, Nish
Website: www.voidnish.com Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com