I probably shouldn't post this...
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It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Last year, when my wife and I were looking for new homes in East Central Indiana (gag) *every* older home we looked at had weaponry in it. In many cases "assault" rifles, pistols, and equipment for making ammunition were left right out in the open. Last year on a trip back to see my family in Western Oklahoma, I went out target shooting with a cousin of mine, he had two mini-14 "assault" rifles. While out, we were joined by two of his friends with their assault rifles. My point, is that your numbers are meaningless. I grew up around guns, everyone I knew had them. My friends and I were all out hunting with our .22s at age twelve. The effort it would take to disarm the American public would be monumental. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis my entire life. I am very familiar with weaponry of virtually every kind. I can assure you that the existence of combat style weaponry in the h
My dad was a Garda (Police Man here in Ireland) for 37 years. He was a high ranking detective and community cop. He fought terriorists and drug barons, and never felt the need to carry a gun. In 1922 after our bloody civil war and war of independance, we removed the gun from Irish life. It wasn't easy, when the new police force where sent out unarmed to secure the countside, in the first 10 years 176 of them where massacered. It was a high cost, but I believe we have gained because of it. Irish history and indeed the history of many other nations confirms, that a society without the gun, is healthier than one with. My dad has always believed this (dispite being shot twice) and I have the same firm conviction. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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My dad was a Garda (Police Man here in Ireland) for 37 years. He was a high ranking detective and community cop. He fought terriorists and drug barons, and never felt the need to carry a gun. In 1922 after our bloody civil war and war of independance, we removed the gun from Irish life. It wasn't easy, when the new police force where sent out unarmed to secure the countside, in the first 10 years 176 of them where massacered. It was a high cost, but I believe we have gained because of it. Irish history and indeed the history of many other nations confirms, that a society without the gun, is healthier than one with. My dad has always believed this (dispite being shot twice) and I have the same firm conviction. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Well, gee, Ray, that kind of makes me wonder how so many people managed to find themselves slaughtered in Ireland before the gun was ever invented! Seems to me that swords used to be a perfectly effective means of massacreing folks.
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Well, gee, Ray, that kind of makes me wonder how so many people managed to find themselves slaughtered in Ireland before the gun was ever invented! Seems to me that swords used to be a perfectly effective means of massacreing folks.
Yet, today in Europe you don't find statistically any where near the same number of people, who feel the need to end someone elses life. Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. Yet we share the same ethnically diverse, wealthy and democratic society. With one difference, we can't carry gun. QED. In fact as far as I am aware, no other country has a set of gun control laws similar to that of the US. So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right ? Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Yet, today in Europe you don't find statistically any where near the same number of people, who feel the need to end someone elses life. Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. Yet we share the same ethnically diverse, wealthy and democratic society. With one difference, we can't carry gun. QED. In fact as far as I am aware, no other country has a set of gun control laws similar to that of the US. So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right ? Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Yet, today in Europe you don't find statistically any where near the same number of people, who feel the need to end someone elses life. Our incidence of crime and our criminal population is lower than the US. Yet we share the same ethnically diverse, wealthy and democratic society. With one difference, we can't carry gun. QED. In fact as far as I am aware, no other country has a set of gun control laws similar to that of the US. So am I to understand that everyone else (the other 7 billion of us, are wrong and the US is right ? Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray, I would rather see this planet go spiraling into the sun with all hands aboard than to see me and mine become part of anything even remotely resembling the European community.
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It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Last year, when my wife and I were looking for new homes in East Central Indiana (gag) *every* older home we looked at had weaponry in it. In many cases "assault" rifles, pistols, and equipment for making ammunition were left right out in the open. Last year on a trip back to see my family in Western Oklahoma, I went out target shooting with a cousin of mine, he had two mini-14 "assault" rifles. While out, we were joined by two of his friends with their assault rifles. My point, is that your numbers are meaningless. I grew up around guns, everyone I knew had them. My friends and I were all out hunting with our .22s at age twelve. The effort it would take to disarm the American public would be monumental. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis my entire life. I am very familiar with weaponry of virtually every kind. I can assure you that the existence of combat style weaponry in the h
It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Of *course* it's all propoganda, I thought I said as much. But the figures that interested me were gun deaths in the US compared to other countries. The site had figures per 100,000 population, and you guys still 'win' hands down. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. This is the problem - you have a culture that can't see the issue of human rights beyond your own right to see the world through gun sights if and when you desire. So while the school shootings and workplace shootings continue, the odds of the situation coming under control are pretty much zip. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! Well, thank you. This is my sole point. But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. Sorry, are you saying that teaching respect for life is an onerous idea ? I said last time we discussed this that the 'right' to bear arms was given to a nation with totally different values, a nation more likely to be able to be trusted with that right. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis m
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Tobacco, autos, airplanes, booze, knives, ladders, water, etc... Of course, all these things are like guns, in that they are designed for the sole purpose of killing people. No, wait.... I for one have never hear of a gun holding up a liquor store. There is usually some moron behind the gun. Man, I LIVE for this pathetic excuse for an argument. It comes up every time, and I don't see how any intelligent person can put it forward. I've seen evidence that Tim is intelligent in other posts and can only continue to assume that gun ownership is the American religion, because only when discussing religion to intelligent people become so irrational. Yes, the gun needs and owner to hold up a liquor store, but the point is that the owner is more likely to feel emboldended to do so *because* he has a gun. Might I ask if you read the statistics on the page in question ? Do you dispute them, or do you consider them unimportant ? Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
Christian, I could throw a rock into any trailer park in Oklahoma and hit someone intelligent enough to, with six weeks of training, program as well or better as you or anyone else on this site. So, please, enough of your analysis of other people's intellect based on their agreement with your political views.
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Ray, I would rather see this planet go spiraling into the sun with all hands aboard than to see me and mine become part of anything even remotely resembling the European community.
You sentiments echo mine own regarding American Society certain quaters of American Society (I won't, as you have done so flippentily, write off a whole society). >European community. European Union. The free trade and free movement of people agreement the Northern American Nations recentily agreed upon, where based partially on European Union treaties (treay of Rome) of nearily 30 years ago. In short the US is playing catch up. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Christian, I could throw a rock into any trailer park in Oklahoma and hit someone intelligent enough to, with six weeks of training, program as well or better as you or anyone else on this site. So, please, enough of your analysis of other people's intellect based on their agreement with your political views.
Christian, I could throw a rock into any trailer park in Oklahoma and hit someone intelligent enough to, with six weeks of training, program as well or better as you or anyone else on this site. So, please, enough of your analysis of other people's intellect based on their agreement with your political views. I stated that the person involved was intelligent despite his ability to see reason on this painfully obvious issue, this was and is the dichotomy that fascinates me. I'm sorry that your own passion for the issue clouded your ability to read what I said. And while you may consider yourself replaceable by a monkey with six weeks training, I guarantee that I am not. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
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Tobacco, autos, airplanes, booze, knives, ladders, water, etc... Of course, all these things are like guns, in that they are designed for the sole purpose of killing people. No, wait.... I for one have never hear of a gun holding up a liquor store. There is usually some moron behind the gun. Man, I LIVE for this pathetic excuse for an argument. It comes up every time, and I don't see how any intelligent person can put it forward. I've seen evidence that Tim is intelligent in other posts and can only continue to assume that gun ownership is the American religion, because only when discussing religion to intelligent people become so irrational. Yes, the gun needs and owner to hold up a liquor store, but the point is that the owner is more likely to feel emboldended to do so *because* he has a gun. Might I ask if you read the statistics on the page in question ? Do you dispute them, or do you consider them unimportant ? Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
Hmmm, guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people? I don't think so. Guns are used by police to defend themselves, to stop and apprehend runaway criminals, and to deter people from causing trouble. In the hands of the police, guns are good. In the hands of hunters or target shooters, guns are good too. They allow hunters to catch the prey they're after, or target shooters to experience the thrill of aiming at something, pulling the trigger, and hitting it. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but target shooting is actually fun. In the hands of the common folks guns can be good or bad. If a drug addict or a compulsive gambler has a gun then he/she is more likely to hold up the liquor store, like you said. I'm sure if you or I had a gun, the last thing on our mind would be to use it for that purpose, right? We would probably keep it safely at home in case someone ever tried to invade our property. Your point seems to be that guns should be taken away from everyone because they facilitate crime in the hands of a derranged minority. Isn't that a lot like your boss dictating that all developers are now going to use Java because it's a safer language? I don't think you would agree, right? You'd probably say, "C++ is a language which in the hands of trained professionals can be used to efficiently write software. We shouldn't take it away; rather, we should train everyone to use it correctly and make them responsible for their usage. Thus, if a developer purposely misuses the language to cause havoc, he/she should be fired." That's my take on guns. Give people the freedom to own them but teach them how to properly use them and make them responsible for their actions with it. Regards, Alvaro
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It is funny, Chrisitan, that the NRA's numbers are all propaganda but the "Brady's" numbers are all factual. Its *all* propaganda, dude. It is obviously ridiculous to compare numbers of "gun" deaths out of a population of 270 Million + to war time deaths out of a few hundred thousand troops in combat. Of *course* it's all propoganda, I thought I said as much. But the figures that interested me were gun deaths in the US compared to other countries. The site had figures per 100,000 population, and you guys still 'win' hands down. Virtually every American I know believes they have a God-given right to own whatever kind of weaponry they please and it is a waste of breath to try to convince them otherwise. I don't own a gun myself, and probably never will, yet I fully believe that a free man does not have to ask permission to defend himself, and I like knowing that, if needed, I could avail myself of weaponry as I please. This is the problem - you have a culture that can't see the issue of human rights beyond your own right to see the world through gun sights if and when you desire. So while the school shootings and workplace shootings continue, the odds of the situation coming under control are pretty much zip. Could disarming the American public bring gun deaths down? Well, duh! Well, thank you. This is my sole point. But people who are determined to kill each other will find a way to do it even if they don't have guns. Timothy McViegh killed, what, 180 something - never fired a shot. Yet, you could also bring those numbers down not by getting rid of the 2nd amendment but by getting rid of the 1st. When I was a kid people were heavily armed, and far fewer people were being murdered, because we were a more moral nation (in that regard). The thought of shooting your classmates was simply not an option. Today, after 40 years of the "if it feels good, do it" mentality, people are far more inclined to solve their problems with guns. Shut Hollywood up for a few years, teach Chrisitan morality in school again, and I can assure you those numbers *will* go down. To me, as an American, one option is as onerous as the other. Sorry, are you saying that teaching respect for life is an onerous idea ? I said last time we discussed this that the 'right' to bear arms was given to a nation with totally different values, a nation more likely to be able to be trusted with that right. I am a trained combat officer in the U.S. Army (inactive), I have hunted on a regular basis m
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You sentiments echo mine own regarding American Society certain quaters of American Society (I won't, as you have done so flippentily, write off a whole society). >European community. European Union. The free trade and free movement of people agreement the Northern American Nations recentily agreed upon, where based partially on European Union treaties (treay of Rome) of nearily 30 years ago. In short the US is playing catch up. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Another intelligent debate descends into the 'my continent's better than your continent' argument. Will we ever learn :)
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Another intelligent debate descends into the 'my continent's better than your continent' argument. Will we ever learn :)
er, point taken, the arguement should probabily be, "my contient is not as bad as your contient". :) Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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The statistics is subject to different interpretations. Here is one: 1. There are too few people committing suicide or having accidents. 2. The weapons used by the enemies in Korean and Vietnam wars were too inefficient. 3. We definitely need to relax the control on mass destruction weapons and start a few more wars. 4. People have knives, why do they stick to handgun only? Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight. And it's a lot more fun to fight with weapons. ;P ;P ;P ;P ;P
As to number 4 Guy goes into 7-11 with knife to rob store. Store owner pulls out gun.:)
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As to number 4 Guy goes into 7-11 with knife to rob store. Store owner pulls out gun.:)
Volience begets Volience Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Another intelligent debate descends into the 'my continent's better than your continent' argument. Will we ever learn :)
Oh, I just feel so ashamed. How very non-European of me!
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Christian, I could throw a rock into any trailer park in Oklahoma and hit someone intelligent enough to, with six weeks of training, program as well or better as you or anyone else on this site. So, please, enough of your analysis of other people's intellect based on their agreement with your political views. I stated that the person involved was intelligent despite his ability to see reason on this painfully obvious issue, this was and is the dichotomy that fascinates me. I'm sorry that your own passion for the issue clouded your ability to read what I said. And while you may consider yourself replaceable by a monkey with six weeks training, I guarantee that I am not. Christian Secrets of a happy marriage #27: Never go to bed if you are mad at each other. It's more fun to stay up and fight.
I think I can safely let that comment stand on its own merit.;) (Monkeys again,hmmm)
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LOL, of course the Brady people wouldn't have a political agenda. Well, if you exclude the Brady Bill. Since we must outlaw everything the people use to: 1. Kill others 2. Kill themselves 3. Kill others or themselves without intent 4. Or just basically kill Then we must outlaw; Tobacco, autos, airplanes, booze, knives, ladders, water, etc... The problem in America with guns isn't the existence in general, it is the illegal possession and use. Time and time again it has been shown that when the EXISTING laws were properly and aggressively enforced, there was a huge drop in gun related deaths. Of course, enforcement of laws doesn't get you votes. That is why we end up with more and more stupid laws passed every year that go un-enforced. I for one have never hear of a gun holding up a liquor store. There is usually some moron behind the gun. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
>I for one have never hear of a gun holding up a liquor store. >There is usually some moron behind the gun. If you live in the United States, doesn't it disturb you that there are so many gun related deaths? Regardless of your views of gun control, I would be bothered by the fact that either a) Guns kill people and there's far too many deaths because of a lack of gun control. or b) Morons kill people and I'm surrounded by a lot more gun-wielding morons than I would be if I lived somewhere else. Note there is no reference to beer or lighthouses anywhere in this post
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>I for one have never hear of a gun holding up a liquor store. >There is usually some moron behind the gun. If you live in the United States, doesn't it disturb you that there are so many gun related deaths? Regardless of your views of gun control, I would be bothered by the fact that either a) Guns kill people and there's far too many deaths because of a lack of gun control. or b) Morons kill people and I'm surrounded by a lot more gun-wielding morons than I would be if I lived somewhere else. Note there is no reference to beer or lighthouses anywhere in this post
Yup, it really bothers me when people cry for new gun control, get it, don't enforce it, cry for more, get it, don't enforce it, etc... It has been shown time and time again that we don't need more gun control. We need to actually enforce what laws we have. But, like I said before, that costs money, doesn't have a high political profile and doesn't make people feel like they are 'doing something'. Of course, here in America, we are happy when a president just gives lip service to issues and never does anything. MTV STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE!!!! Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
