"Hackathons" and related "hack" stuff
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BTW: I am based in the UK... I was recently asked by my company why I had not signed up to their "Hack-a-thon" day. I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do). They asked why. So I gave them following answer: "I am a professional software developer, and don't think that stuff given the moniker 'hack' sits well with all I have tried to do in my (many years) of being a software developer." Yes the romantic idea that a company can feed you pizza and beer, and probably get some tangible "product" that could be marketed strikes me as odd as me (or you) would never see any recognition of the "product" dreamed of (financial or kudos). Some of the great "hacks"/ideas have happened in peoples "spare time" have resulted in multi-million companies (Facebook, Uber etc). Where would these be if they were given away on a "hack"? If I was smart/imaginative enough to come up with an "industry changing" product, I would setup my own business and do it there. I would probably do the same if it just made my life easier (think "Hive"). I have a family which i really like more than (unpaid) work, so it's a bit of a no brainer/insult when I am asked (and looked down upon and decline) to spend 24 hours at work and still do my day job! There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software? I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack? Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
FWIW, I am also based in the UK.. I think it depends on the company really.. did they invite people from outside the company? Personally, I can see the fun in getting together to challenge each other at coding tasks. If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
To answer that one, I code for pleasure. It's my job, but it's what I love too.. have done for 36 years, and it's difficult to imagine a time when I don't code. If I get to meet like-minded people, even better..
richp669 wrote:
I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack?
That's exactly why we chose what we do, we can do it any time we like and create what we like. Family is important too, I agree.. I spend a lot of time with mine and do other things apart from coding, but I still find time for coding outside work too because I enjoy it. If you don't really enjoy it, maybe there's a deeper issue..? :)
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
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BTW: I am based in the UK... I was recently asked by my company why I had not signed up to their "Hack-a-thon" day. I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do). They asked why. So I gave them following answer: "I am a professional software developer, and don't think that stuff given the moniker 'hack' sits well with all I have tried to do in my (many years) of being a software developer." Yes the romantic idea that a company can feed you pizza and beer, and probably get some tangible "product" that could be marketed strikes me as odd as me (or you) would never see any recognition of the "product" dreamed of (financial or kudos). Some of the great "hacks"/ideas have happened in peoples "spare time" have resulted in multi-million companies (Facebook, Uber etc). Where would these be if they were given away on a "hack"? If I was smart/imaginative enough to come up with an "industry changing" product, I would setup my own business and do it there. I would probably do the same if it just made my life easier (think "Hive"). I have a family which i really like more than (unpaid) work, so it's a bit of a no brainer/insult when I am asked (and looked down upon and decline) to spend 24 hours at work and still do my day job! There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software? I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack? Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
richp669 wrote:
I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do).
Or.... just say, "No thanks, I'm not interested." I say there are bigger problems to get upset about. Like Win10. It's popular to hate it right now so spend your time and energy doing that. :-\
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Not really. The closest example that I can think of is the "unpaid overtime" that some companies (especially in the Legal and Accounting professions) require of their workers. (Note that this may not be legal where you live, and it is unfair everywhere).
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill
It's unusual for salaried professionals to get overtime pay; they're paid according to their knowledge, skills, and achievements, not by the hour.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
There is; but in our industry there is more competition. If you don't do as told, they'll hire someone who will. And there is always someone willing :)
richp669 wrote:
Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
It is not the fault of the industry; what kind of idiot employee would agree to work for nothing? Anyone who accepts the deal has earned it, and deserves it completely.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is; but in our industry there is more competition. If you don't do as told, they'll hire someone who will. And there is always someone willing :)
Strange, but I never had that problem. Bosses always wanted to keep up that illusion, but at the same time they were begging on their knees for applicants to come to an interview. Actually, they were not so smart. They want only the best codemonkeys and at the same time they want them to easily replacable. Even someone with a hamster's brain must see how contradictory that is. But not them.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
It's unusual for salaried professionals to get overtime pay; they're paid according to their knowledge, skills, and achievements, not by the hour.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
My former bosses also came with that Hackathon stuff and also expected us to come in on a sunday. If they pay us for results and skills, why do they see to it that we spend not a minute less than the weekly time in the office? And why are they much more generous when it is in their favor? It's right to fulfill the contract you have signed, but that works in both directions.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is; but in our industry there is more competition. If you don't do as told, they'll hire someone who will. And there is always someone willing :)
Strange, but I never had that problem. Bosses always wanted to keep up that illusion, but at the same time they were begging on their knees for applicants to come to an interview. Actually, they were not so smart. They want only the best codemonkeys and at the same time they want them to easily replacable. Even someone with a hamster's brain must see how contradictory that is. But not them.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.True enough, but as it optional (and I hope not used to as a way of saying that I'm not a "team player", then its fine. I bring more to the team than being a codemonkey (I hope)! anyhoo - I was very clear at the job interview about my position on work/life/family balance and they still hired me! :-D :-D
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
There is; but in our industry there is more competition. If you don't do as told, they'll hire someone who will. And there is always someone willing :)
Strange, but I never had that problem. Bosses always wanted to keep up that illusion, but at the same time they were begging on their knees for applicants to come to an interview. Actually, they were not so smart. They want only the best codemonkeys and at the same time they want them to easily replacable. Even someone with a hamster's brain must see how contradictory that is. But not them.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.CDP1802 wrote:
Bosses always wanted to keep up that illusion
Ask your boss if he would pay you for doing nothing. The answer will be "no", because you don't get freebies. It's a business-deal, your time and expertise in exchange for money.
CDP1802 wrote:
Even someone with a hamster's brain must see how contradictory that is. But not them.
May be contradictory, but the strategy works.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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It's unusual for salaried professionals to get overtime pay; they're paid according to their knowledge, skills, and achievements, not by the hour.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
True, but that does not mean that they should be expected to regularly work more than a normal workday without remuneration. Being a professional is not equivalent to being a slave!
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack. --Winston Churchill
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FWIW, I am also based in the UK.. I think it depends on the company really.. did they invite people from outside the company? Personally, I can see the fun in getting together to challenge each other at coding tasks. If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
To answer that one, I code for pleasure. It's my job, but it's what I love too.. have done for 36 years, and it's difficult to imagine a time when I don't code. If I get to meet like-minded people, even better..
richp669 wrote:
I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack?
That's exactly why we chose what we do, we can do it any time we like and create what we like. Family is important too, I agree.. I spend a lot of time with mine and do other things apart from coding, but I still find time for coding outside work too because I enjoy it. If you don't really enjoy it, maybe there's a deeper issue..? :)
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
There may be a deeper issue, as over the summer I really just felt like being a dev (which I love doing), was being a chore, not a joy. However, a new horizon opened up and I took it (to the detriment of the W/F/L balance). Still: 1) may off mortgage, 2) get rid of kids, 3) retire to carribean island... I life to dream :laugh:
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CDP1802 wrote:
Bosses always wanted to keep up that illusion
Ask your boss if he would pay you for doing nothing. The answer will be "no", because you don't get freebies. It's a business-deal, your time and expertise in exchange for money.
CDP1802 wrote:
Even someone with a hamster's brain must see how contradictory that is. But not them.
May be contradictory, but the strategy works.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
May be contradictory, but the strategy works.
Certainly not for them. They were a shrinking and demoralized bunch when I left a year ago and by now there is barely enough of them left (including the bosses) for a poker round.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
richp669 wrote:
I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do).
Or.... just say, "No thanks, I'm not interested." I say there are bigger problems to get upset about. Like Win10. It's popular to hate it right now so spend your time and energy doing that. :-\
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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FWIW, I am also based in the UK.. I think it depends on the company really.. did they invite people from outside the company? Personally, I can see the fun in getting together to challenge each other at coding tasks. If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
To answer that one, I code for pleasure. It's my job, but it's what I love too.. have done for 36 years, and it's difficult to imagine a time when I don't code. If I get to meet like-minded people, even better..
richp669 wrote:
I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack?
That's exactly why we chose what we do, we can do it any time we like and create what we like. Family is important too, I agree.. I spend a lot of time with mine and do other things apart from coding, but I still find time for coding outside work too because I enjoy it. If you don't really enjoy it, maybe there's a deeper issue..? :)
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
Brent Jenkins wrote:
If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
They don't have too... everything you create using their resources is already their property. Yes.. that includes you creating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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There may be a deeper issue, as over the summer I really just felt like being a dev (which I love doing), was being a chore, not a joy. However, a new horizon opened up and I took it (to the detriment of the W/F/L balance). Still: 1) may off mortgage, 2) get rid of kids, 3) retire to carribean island... I life to dream :laugh:
richp669 wrote:
I really just felt like being a dev (which I love doing), was being a chore, not a joy
I felt like that 8 years ago before I decided to become a contractor. It's much more enjoyable being able to move about onto different projects and working with different people all the time (although having said that, I've been in my current contract for just over 2 years :)).
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
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Brent Jenkins wrote:
If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
They don't have too... everything you create using their resources is already their property. Yes.. that includes you creating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
If it's an informal meet up (dare I say it, "a bit of fun"!?) then common sense should prevail.
Nelek wrote:
reating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
..with their purchased software of course? :) Seriously, you should have your own equipment for private projects.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
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Brent Jenkins wrote:
If the company's looking over your shoulder recording everything you're doing then that's something else..
They don't have too... everything you create using their resources is already their property. Yes.. that includes you creating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
I always refuse to have a laptop as that blurrs the work/family/life balance too far into their direction. I even don't hand over my personal mobile number to work (I have a 2 sim phone for work/private). All my side projects are done using my own hardware and "community" software dev tooling :laugh:
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If it's an informal meet up (dare I say it, "a bit of fun"!?) then common sense should prevail.
Nelek wrote:
reating a private project in spare time at home just using their laptop
..with their purchased software of course? :) Seriously, you should have your own equipment for private projects.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
That does not matter. It's a legal problem. What if you write something for them and later claim to have done this at home? That's why they try to disown you of anything you produce, no matter when, where or with what tools you have done that. If any boss would ever try that with me, I'm going to make sure that he gets more than he bargained for. It would be like him personally wheeling the Trojan Horse into his own city. He wanted all my work, so he's going to get it.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns. -
That does not matter. It's a legal problem. What if you write something for them and later claim to have done this at home? That's why they try to disown you of anything you produce, no matter when, where or with what tools you have done that. If any boss would ever try that with me, I'm going to make sure that he gets more than he bargained for. It would be like him personally wheeling the Trojan Horse into his own city. He wanted all my work, so he's going to get it.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a fucking golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?" "You mean like from space?" "No, from Canada." If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.CDP1802 wrote:
What if you write something for them and later claim to have done this at home?
If your home project is fundamentally the same as what your employer/client is doing, then yes you're asking for trouble. If you're project is something completely different, written with your own hardware and software in your own time, then they have no rights over it. Having said that, your employer/client can try and put something in your contract to say otherwise, but you're a fool if you sign a contract that claims IPR over everything and anything you do.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
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BTW: I am based in the UK... I was recently asked by my company why I had not signed up to their "Hack-a-thon" day. I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do). They asked why. So I gave them following answer: "I am a professional software developer, and don't think that stuff given the moniker 'hack' sits well with all I have tried to do in my (many years) of being a software developer." Yes the romantic idea that a company can feed you pizza and beer, and probably get some tangible "product" that could be marketed strikes me as odd as me (or you) would never see any recognition of the "product" dreamed of (financial or kudos). Some of the great "hacks"/ideas have happened in peoples "spare time" have resulted in multi-million companies (Facebook, Uber etc). Where would these be if they were given away on a "hack"? If I was smart/imaginative enough to come up with an "industry changing" product, I would setup my own business and do it there. I would probably do the same if it just made my life easier (think "Hive"). I have a family which i really like more than (unpaid) work, so it's a bit of a no brainer/insult when I am asked (and looked down upon and decline) to spend 24 hours at work and still do my day job! There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software? I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack? Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure
Porn star?
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BTW: I am based in the UK... I was recently asked by my company why I had not signed up to their "Hack-a-thon" day. I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do). They asked why. So I gave them following answer: "I am a professional software developer, and don't think that stuff given the moniker 'hack' sits well with all I have tried to do in my (many years) of being a software developer." Yes the romantic idea that a company can feed you pizza and beer, and probably get some tangible "product" that could be marketed strikes me as odd as me (or you) would never see any recognition of the "product" dreamed of (financial or kudos). Some of the great "hacks"/ideas have happened in peoples "spare time" have resulted in multi-million companies (Facebook, Uber etc). Where would these be if they were given away on a "hack"? If I was smart/imaginative enough to come up with an "industry changing" product, I would setup my own business and do it there. I would probably do the same if it just made my life easier (think "Hive"). I have a family which i really like more than (unpaid) work, so it's a bit of a no brainer/insult when I am asked (and looked down upon and decline) to spend 24 hours at work and still do my day job! There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software? I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack? Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software?
You could start something there, I would start by organizing something for doctors: line up non-essential operations (ingrown toenails, varicose veins, hips/knees ...), a "slashathon" - doctors get to brag their skills and speed, patients who normally wait years treated sooner. Seriously though bosses should realise for some (if not most) people programming is a job, not every mechanic spends their weekend building super dream cars, not every builder adds bay windows to their own home, not every chef spends their days off creating new recipes - sure some do, most don't. (I know damn good mechanics that drive the lousiest cars, master builders that live in leaky drafty houses...) As to hackathons, that's junior programmer shit. Tell the boss you are busy weekends: kids sports, helping the parents, church, hiking, bomb building...
Sin tack ear lol Pressing the any key may be continuate
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BTW: I am based in the UK... I was recently asked by my company why I had not signed up to their "Hack-a-thon" day. I was really peaved that someone would ask, and got a bit defensive (like us devs do). They asked why. So I gave them following answer: "I am a professional software developer, and don't think that stuff given the moniker 'hack' sits well with all I have tried to do in my (many years) of being a software developer." Yes the romantic idea that a company can feed you pizza and beer, and probably get some tangible "product" that could be marketed strikes me as odd as me (or you) would never see any recognition of the "product" dreamed of (financial or kudos). Some of the great "hacks"/ideas have happened in peoples "spare time" have resulted in multi-million companies (Facebook, Uber etc). Where would these be if they were given away on a "hack"? If I was smart/imaginative enough to come up with an "industry changing" product, I would setup my own business and do it there. I would probably do the same if it just made my life easier (think "Hive"). I have a family which i really like more than (unpaid) work, so it's a bit of a no brainer/insult when I am asked (and looked down upon and decline) to spend 24 hours at work and still do my day job! There is no other industry where the employees do "homework" or their work for pleasure, so why is this encouraged in software? I had friends that are builders, plumbers, bin-men, train drivers, airplane technicians, shop workers and bankers (yup wide circle) - none of these are asked to perform their day job in their spare time for no reward - so what's the crack? Are there any other industries that asks this of employees??
richp669 wrote:
There is no other industry where the employees do "homework"
Priests? (Although they might have to attend the odd Heckathon)
